The Jerry Baldwin Saga: 1998-2020

[Turbine]

No doubt some people believe in the spare the rod spoil the child theory but it is bunk.

Off topic but when I think of "spare the rod" or the "Rod of discipline" I think of a sheep herder who uses the rod to steer his sheep in the right direction not beat them.

[CajunEXPRESS]

When I reviewed the private schools that are accepting vouchers it really wasn't surprising. Almost all of these schools struggle financially. I'm not saying they are bad schools but the driving force at this stage is money.

Every school that I have seen listed as opting out is a financially sound school and they see no benefit to accepting voucher students. Just an observation of what is driving the train at this stage.

Amazing how many capitilist want government money. Government money to private business is where the vast bulk of corruption occurs.

[Just1More]

Turb, corporal punishment is not needed ever. I had three kids and all were head strong. From the fist moment they could make a decision I made the decision for them. They never knew they could not obey me. As they grew I allowed them more and more opportunities to make decisions. When they screwed up I reduced those options until they showed growth.

No doubt some people believe in the spare the rod spoil the child theory but it is bunk. I have known as many parents with great kids who were never spanked as those who were spanked. I haved known as many with problem kids who were never spanked as those who were spanked. There is no basis for hitting a kid.

If you find you have to hit your kid, then you missed the boat when they were toddlers, and are now in a reactive phase. In a very real sense a total failue. Now if your kid is a sociopath, or psychopath no amount of parenting with or without physical disipline will help. That kid needs lots of professional help, all others with the right mindset can be properly handeled without hitting them, and in no circumstance can I understand a parent being OK with some authority figure beating their kids.

There are other techniques for enforcement of good behavior, but corporal punishment is one that is extremely necessary. You state that it becomes "necessary" after the fact, reactionary, because you failed somewhere in the toddler phase. Toddlers, along with other messages, also need corporal punishment. You and others are throwing out the baby with the bath water. You do not elminate corporal punishment just because there are cases of abuse. Do I also believe in implementation of 30 other measures... you better believe it. It isn't that spankings do not work. You cannot spank a child and be a child yourself. When you look at problem families, where physical abuse occurs, you see a parent that has an upside down value system.

Many want to encourage a "don't spank a child" argument to very responsible and overall effective "parents". The "don't hit your kid" argument is only applicable to people that are abusive... and they don't listen to anyone anyway. I will say, that if parents do not spank their children, then it is very ineffective to allow a third party (teacher/administrator) do it. All parents should include spanking in their complete package of raising a child.

Sure, it's too late to slap a teenager once they are no longer cute and you can't control them. Parents that don't do all of the other things with their children correctly, certainly can't put the train back on the rails by "hitting" their children. But, I believe you are dead wrong in eliminating spankings. I do believe you spank your kids when they need it, and they are much better off.

It's funny that one of my nieces didn't spank her kids. They were very hard for my sister and my mother to deal with left at their houses. Even though she and her husband didn't believe in spanking... they finally caved in. They realized you cannot work with a 4 or 5 year old that gets away with misbehavior... even if you provide massive love and numerous other incentives and forms of punishment... without providing instant punishment in the form of a spanking. I know countless grown adults that were spanked and absolutely aren't the least bit "abusive" in any walks of life. They spanked their kids and their kids are exemplory human beings.

You keep saying "beating their kid". A swat by a paddle or belt on the butt is not a beating. I think it is a degrading experience and that is a very good lesson and deterent. I'm a firm believer that the fact that "spankings" were discouraged by psychologists years ago... we are paying for it. I need to go research it, but one of the leading child psychologists in the 90s that advocated the "every child's a winner" push has come out and written books that he was absolutely dead wrong.

[CajunRebel]

Are you a part of the existing public education system (directly)? I sense that you don't wish to peel the onion and look at the root cause failures in this system. I don't really buy that you aren't a liberal sympathizer. You are way too fast to defend them. You argued with me that "most professors aren't liberal"... and that "the mainstream media isn't liberal"... a bunch of "your" opinion-laden responses. So, everyone is discussing "teacher effectiveness" and "better use of resources" at the meetings they attended. Is that the problem? Was that likely the discussions 10, 20 years ago. Did it correct anything? Oh, and even if conservatives have been voted in to many positions, they did not build this educational infrastructure and have had hell tearing it down. You are incorrect as to who actually has control over the Louisiana education system. The voucher program is a conservative answer... and it is not a perfect one. But, something had to begin challenging the existing system. If conservatives were already in charge, as you stated, then why would conservatives be deploying this voucher system?

Let me ask this, those that used "the man" as the antagonist in their examples... just because they couldn't name them by name... were these people's claim's unfounded? There are many that say "government" or "they" are creating more bad than good. Do you not believe this "swarm" is out there? You seriously don't believe that a liberal application of values has been heavily responsible for the degradation of our public school system and our societal problems as a whole. I do.

You keep ignoring portions of my posts. I told you that I call the culprits "pseudo-intellectuals". They are my "the man". Now that you have exonerated the "pseudo-intellectuals" and the "liberals" from being a big part of the problem... what is the problem with the public school system? And if you are going to point at "parents"... I will point you back to the "pseudo-intellectuals" and "liberals". If you have a problem with that... I seriously do not care.

And by the way, since you said that "most educators" and even "most people" don't agree with me... could you please list them by name? Also list "those people" you said I reminded you of. It's an old trick of yours that attempts to lower the credibility of my arguments.

No I'm not a part of the system right now. But I studied it for a few years when I was at UL as an Education major. And while I was a student there I did have a chance to “peel the onion back.” I was forced to learn about current policies. I was forced to examine problems and look for solutions to problems. I attended school board meetings and observed classes in most of the public schools in the area. Not once were things presented in the left-right ideological battles that you assume they are. And In all my experiences I never heard the words liberal, conservative, left, right, republican, or democrat ever uttered or mentioned.

I’m far from a liberal sympathizer. I’m a libertarian. As a libertarian I truly detest both major parties and don’t agree with most of the ideologies they hold. I hate the left-right battle that takes place in this country and I think it’s horribly destructive to our nation. And I hate the fact that people like you automatically choose to blame the other side for all the world’s problems even when there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. I think it’s a very dishonest and juvenile way to look at the world.
I show you research (done by a conservative who wrote a book about liberal media bias) that proves the WSJ leans conservative and you completely dismiss the study because it was done by a “liberal” college professor. That’s just flat out dishonest on your part. You state that all the educational policies in this state are “liberal” policies but this state and it’s education boards have been run by conservatives for almost their entire existence. Personally I don’t place the blame on liberals or conservatives. Neither do most other people. But if you have to pick one group to place the blame on it would be the group that’s been in power, not the group that has had no power. But for some reason you want to believe the opposite is true.

I briefly explained what I thought was wrong with the education system. I could write a novel on it but this post is long enough already. You can go back and read my old post.

And read this carefully. I said most people and most educators would disagree with your assumption that education is a big battleground between liberals and conservatives. The politically charged issues you keep bringing up are never even discussed at school board meetings or BESE Board hearings. Look at the policies of the state BESE Board and http://www.doe.louisiana.gov/bese/ I challenge you to find one policy that’s obviously “liberal” or “conservative.” And you’ll also notice that none of the horrible liberal evils you mentioned are actually part of BESE policy. But I you’ll still continue to believe that liberals are destroying education. Because that's what you do.

You have shown that you’ll believe what you want when you want it despite evidence that proves otherwise. It’s pointless to have discussions with people like that so this will be my last post addressing your comments. I’d much rather discussing these things with the other folks on here who think more rationally.

[Just1More]

Amazing how many capitilist want government money. Government money to private business is where the vast bulk of corruption occurs.

There's no such thing as "government money" in a capitalism based economy. Government is allowed money, voted by representatives, on behalf of the taxpayers (and unfortunately non-taxpayers) to fund systems deemed better operated by government. And the greatest corruption occurs when the capitalist's fundamental called "competition" is usurped by the government and the government creates the opportunity or even encourages wasteful and fraudulent use of taxpayer funds.

When you see government money ill-used by what you call capitalists... you are seeing a failure of government management of funds. And yes... government is such horrible managers of money that you must work to limit how much of it they have to spend. In every situation, you must ask "is there any way private competitive capitalism can perform this function"? If not, you "may" need the government to do it. But, take your time and seriously reconsider. "That" is where corruption occurs.

[rgncjn12]

When I reviewed the private schools that are accepting vouchers it really wasn't surprising. Almost all of these schools struggle financially. I'm not saying they are bad schools but the driving force at this stage is money.

Every school that I have seen listed as opting out is a financially sound school and they see no benefit to accepting voucher students. Just an observation of what is driving the train at this stage.

Link to the list of schools accepting vouchers and schools that have opted out please.

[Duggie35]

There are other techniques for enforcement of good behavior, but corporal punishment is one that is extremely necessary. You state that it becomes "necessary" after the fact, reactionary, because you failed somewhere in the toddler phase. Toddlers, along with other messages, also need corporal punishment. You and others are throwing out the baby with the bath water. You do not elminate corporal punishment just because there are cases of abuse. Do I also believe in implementation of 30 other measures... you better believe it. It isn't that spankings do not work. You cannot spank a child and be a child yourself. When you look at problem families, where physical abuse occurs, you see a parent that has an upside down value system.

Many want to encourage a "don't spank a child" argument to very responsible and overall effective "parents". The "don't hit your kid" argument is only applicable to people that are abusive... and they don't listen to anyone anyway. I will say, that if parents do not spank their children, then it is very ineffective to allow a third party (teacher/administrator) do it. All parents should include spanking in their complete package of raising a child.

Sure, it's too late to slap a teenager once they are no longer cute and you can't control them. Parents that don't do all of the other things with their children correctly, certainly can't put the train back on the rails by "hitting" their children. But, I believe you are dead wrong in eliminating spankings. I do believe you spank your kids when they need it, and they are much better off.

It's funny that one of my nieces didn't spank her kids. They were very hard for my sister and my mother to deal with left at their houses. Even though she and her husband didn't believe in spanking... they finally caved in. They realized you cannot work with a 4 or 5 year old that gets away with misbehavior... even if you provide massive love and numerous other incentives and forms of punishment... without providing instant punishment in the form of a spanking. I know countless grown adults that were spanked and absolutely aren't the least bit "abusive" in any walks of life. They spanked their kids and their kids are exemplory human beings.

You keep saying "beating their kid". A swat by a paddle or belt on the butt is not a beating. I think it is a degrading experience and that is a very good lesson and deterent. I'm a firm believer that the fact that "spankings" were discouraged by psychologists years ago... we are paying for it. I need to go research it, but one of the leading child psychologists in the 90s that advocated the "every child's a winner" push has come out and written books that he was absolutely dead wrong.

Thank you very much for much more eloquently making the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. There is a tremendous amount of difference between "spanking" a child and "beating" a child. A "good" spanking can go a long way in child rearing, and if started early in life, most children won't need very many. However, trying to correct a problem child as they get older is many times a loosing battle. Thank God there is at least one person around this board that still has good old fashioned common sense and traditional parenting skills!!! I bet your children are good productive citizens and still love and respect you? I know that's how I feel about my parents. While they were still alive, I thanked them (not enough) for raising me the way they did and I will always love and respect them. My brother, sister and I were never spanked on a regular basis, but only when we NEEDED it and DESERVED it!!!

[Boomer]

Off topic but when I think of "spare the rod" or the "Rod of discipline" I think of a sheep herder who uses the rod to steer his sheep in the right direction not beat them.

-----T-Bine I think you need a little Biblical interpretation on this-----St Aug just went through a huge discussion on this---Seems to have worked pretty well through the years---BTW I did my Master's Thesis on this subject----Yes a long time ago!!! lol

[Just1More]

No I'm not a part of the system right now. But I studied it for a few years when I was at UL as an Education major. And while I was a student there I did have a chance to "peel the onion back." I was forced to learn about current policies. I was forced to examine problems and look for solutions to problems. I attended school board meetings and observed classes in most of the public schools in the area. Not once were things presented in the left-right ideological battles that you assume they are. And In all my experiences I never heard the words liberal, conservative, left, right, republican, or democrat ever uttered or mentioned.

I'm far from a liberal sympathizer. I'm a libertarian. As a libertarian I truly detest both major parties and don't agree with most of the ideologies they hold. I hate the left-right battle that takes place in this country and I think it's horribly destructive to our nation. And I hate the fact that people like you automatically choose to blame the other side for all the world's problems even when there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. I think it's a very dishonest and juvenile way to look at the world.
I show you research (done by a conservative who wrote a book about liberal media bias) that proves the WSJ leans conservative and you completely dismiss the study because it was done by a "liberal" college professor. That's just flat out dishonest on your part. You state that all the educational policies in this state are "liberal" policies but this state and it's education boards have been run by conservatives for almost their entire existence. Personally I don't place the blame on liberals or conservatives. Neither do most other people. But if you have to pick one group to place the blame on it would be the group that's been in power, not the group that has had no power. But for some reason you want to believe the opposite is true.

I briefly explained what I thought was wrong with the education system. I could write a novel on it but this post is long enough already. You can go back and read my old post.

And read this carefully. I said most people and most educators would disagree with your assumption that education is a big battleground between liberals and conservatives. The politically charged issues you keep bringing up are never even discussed at school board meetings or BESE Board hearings. Look at the policies of the state BESE Board and http://www.doe.louisiana.gov/bese/ I challenge you to find one policy that's obviously "liberal" or "conservative." And you'll also notice that none of the horrible liberal evils you mentioned are actually part of BESE policy. But I you'll still continue to believe that liberals are destroying education. Because that's what you do.

You have shown that you'll believe what you want when you want it despite evidence that proves otherwise. It's pointless to have discussions with people like that so this will be my last post addressing your comments. I'd much rather discussing these things with the other folks on here who think more rationally.

First, but of less significance, your time as a student in no way qualifies you as any more of any examiner of the education system as 90% of the parents participating. More importantly, I did not start this thread's "political blame" game. Also, you've incorrectly assumed my politics. I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberatarian. I prefer conversatives in political office. I detest all politicians and find conservatives the easiest to move toward the will of the public. The other mistake you've made is stating that I ever stated what the oral content of a school board meeting or a BESE board hearing. I said that the pseudo-intellectuals have dominated the school system with their political and emotional bias. Public school system officials have cowered in fear of the legal system, the teacher's unions, and the left-leaning consultants in the past few decades. These issues don't get discussed in board meetings. The trend has jogged over to the exact "lack of values" that I mentioned earlier.

And insinuating that I'm some of the ilk that you detest... that I always blame the left... is a pile of BS. I put the pressure on anyone drawing a public paycheck and always have. I detest big government. If you cannot gleen that from my posts, you're the one with a comprehension issue.

I never attacked you, as you have chosen to attack me. I have kept my points open and lacking in specificity for a reason. I do not think this is a great place to offer up more than general items of discussion. You can't look me in the face as you give me your arguments and can't you. I think that is a very important part of taking it personal. I'm willing to take it there... and no... I won't whip your ___ instantly. I will argue until the cows come home. But, if you lack a sense of humor, and you aren't that good at arguing without attacking me personally... I'm crank your ___ into a world of hurt you've not experienced. So, from here on out, you get as jacked up and "detested" as you want... but don't act as if you're taking me personally to the mat.

I don't care for liberals in offices of political power. I have ample evidence and arguments to support my personal position. You don't have to agree, but they are far far from juvenile. Again, I am a conservative fiscally and don't even believe in having much government interference on social issues. You can choose to dislike both major parties equally. I do not. I find that the Democratic Party, moreso than the Republican Party, has created, not just identified support for, a growing dependent league of voters for their party. I also do not like their selection of specific social issues to attempt to split votes among so many.

[Bankruptcyman]

-----BTW I did my Master's Thesis on this subject----Yes a long time ago!!! lol

Yes Boomer carved his thesis on stone tablets!!!

[Turbine]

-----T-Bine I think you need a little Biblical interpretation on this-----St Aug just went through a huge discussion on this---Seems to have worked pretty well through the years---BTW I did my Master's Thesis on this subject----Yes a long time ago!!! lol

Well break out the moth balls and send it to me.

As a proud recipient of the Biblical interpretation, especially -Pr 13:24 and 23:13 I must say I wasn't offering strick interpretation.

I was just saying it doesn't have to be all beat all the time, some of those Bible writers were sheep herders and in everyday use, they used their rod to just steer or nudge the flock in the right direction. Others I guess had rod only for protection and perhaps saw their sole purpose as a beat stick.

Proper discipline and direction can sometimes be a nudge and doesn't have to automatically include a beating.

jmpo

[CajunT]

i'm just not sure what this "teacher union" business is all about. here? in LA? maybe the northeast or the midwest. but, in LA? teacher unions? please remember a couple of other things: public schools do not have the luxury of selective admissions, and, there is no state accountability for private and parochial schools. so, how do we as the taxpayers footing this bill, know for certain that the parent of the child in the "f" public school is enrolling his child in a "b" or "a" private school. because of the perception that private is better? the state knew better than to force the privates to accept accountability, but there should be some accountability or else in most cases we're just dealing with perception in the end.

If you live in Lafayette Parish and you are not aware of unions, then maybe you should do some homework. Here is the link to the LPAE web site.

LPAE
http://lpae.org/