Five Keys to Beating Texas State – From the Bird's Nest

[CajunJack55]

But many fans do not evaluate turnovers at all. I find it very hard to listen to a coach tell his defense to "go force turnovers". Then listen to him tell his offense "don't turn the ball over". I completely understand teaching fundamentals. But to act as if "your" defense forced the turnover... but their defense didn't... is one ignorant coach. And to act as if "your" offense coughed up the ball... but their offense didn't... is one ingorant coach.

I cannot tolerate talking about "turnover battles" any more than I can tolerate "tighter shoestring battles". You teach players a multitude of things. If you're going to give speeches to a "team" about "turnovers"... I'd like to smash your head with a iron skillet. And to have explained it 1000 times to people... and still get a jock's interpretation of it... infuriates me.

But as you stated... you don't capture all of the circumstances surrounding a turnover... but the coaches with a smidgeon of sense... certainly grade out the play and look for opportunities to teach the individuals involved.

I think its possible when you have a great offense to build a defense that gives up yards, plays with cushion, but relies on turnovers via blitzing and surprising the offenses. Those coaches know their offenses are sound and if they turn the ball over its not a big deal, so you do not hear them talking about the turnover battle. Our case is different. We cannot afford to rely on turnover to stop the other team because we can't find the end-zone. Our coaches are insinuating that the only reason we are losing games is because we are losing the turnover battle, which is absolutely false.

[CrappDaddy]

I think its possible when you have a great offense to build a defense that gives up yards, plays with cushion, but relies on turnovers via blitzing and surprising the offenses. Those coaches know their offenses are sound and if they turn the ball over its not a big deal, so you do not hear them talking about the turnover battle. Our case is different. We cannot afford to rely on turnover to stop the other team because we can't find the end-zone. Our coaches are insinuating that the only reason we are losing games is because we are losing the turnover battle, which is absolutely false.

Partially correct. When the QB makes a terrible decision and throws a pass he never should have and the opponent scores 6 points off of it, that directly affects the outcome of the game.

[Just1More]

I was watching a game a couple weeks back, and the defense was stripping the ball. They did this at least twice, once right before the ball carrier crossed the goal line. This was a game changer. In these cases, the ball carriers were somewhat at fault for not having the ball tucked away well enough, but the defenders were well schooled in recognizing the opportunity tho strip the ball and took advantage of it. So I can see both sides of this.

As I've stated before, teaching certain players (after they've mastered tackling) to strip the ball, or put their helmet on the ball... is a technical teaching issue. Teaching a RB or WR to properly handle, hold and protect the football is a technical teaching issue. There's no "battle" for turnovers. There's very specific skill training. There are fumbles that I 98% blamed on the ball carrier. There are fumbles I 98% credited the tackler. For a coach to jaw off like they're all the same... is a coach I don't want to pay to be on our sideline.

To "win" a "turnover battle"... implies that if you "lost" the "battle" 1-2 in week one... you're bad with turnovers. But if you "won" in week two 12-11... you're doing good with turnovers... is stupid. There's no battle. You teach good fundamentals and technical skills... to each player... according to his assignment... period.

[Just1More]

I think its possible when you have a great offense to build a defense that gives up yards, plays with cushion, but relies on turnovers via blitzing and surprising the offenses. Those coaches know their offenses are sound and if they turn the ball over its not a big deal, so you do not hear them talking about the turnover battle. Our case is different. We cannot afford to rely on turnover to stop the other team because we can't find the end-zone. Our coaches are insinuating that the only reason we are losing games is because we are losing the turnover battle, which is absolutely false.

It's all skill teaching. It's not a game battle... any more than its a season battle. There's no team turnover trophy.

[Just1More]

Partially correct. When the QB makes a terrible decision and throws a pass he never should have and the opponent scores 6 points off of it, that directly affects the outcome of the game.

No, he is exactly correct. He's saying the "turnover battle" is false. That is not saying that any given turnover isn't devastating. I watched a game the other day where a team couldn't score after having been gifted a turnover inside the 10 yard line. The announcer said, "having not converted the turnover to points just took the air out of this team". So, in that case... the turnover itself was neutralized... and was turned into a mental battering ram by the team that coughed up the ball.

Turnovers you lose suck. Turnovers you win are awesome. But this brain dead obsession with the "battle" is a horrible indictment of the minds of coaches. When I see other flawed skills training... but I hear dumb____ talk like "turnover battle"... I have no mercy. It's an old recipe for bad cooking.

[CajunEXPRESS]

But many fans do not evaluate turnovers at all. I find it very hard to listen to a coach tell his defense to "go force turnovers". Then listen to him tell his offense "don't turn the ball over". I completely understand teaching fundamentals. But to act as if "your" defense forced the turnover... but their defense didn't... is one ignorant coach. And to act as if "your" offense coughed up the ball... but their offense didn't... is one ingorant coach.

I cannot tolerate talking about "turnover battles" any more than I can tolerate "tighter shoestring battles". You teach players a multitude of things. If you're going to give speeches to a "team" about "turnovers"... I'd like to smash your head with a iron skillet. And to have explained it 1000 times to people... and still get a jock's interpretation of it... infuriates me.

But as you stated... you don't capture all of the circumstances surrounding a turnover... but the coaches with a smidgeon of sense... certainly grade out the play and look for opportunities to teach the individuals involved.

You can indeed coach turnovers. One, Charles Peanut Tilman has a punch out he is credited with popularizing. We, Saint Fans, saw and heard the Peanut punch turnover as #22 of the Saints had it punched out inside the ten of KC. The announcer referred to it as the Tilman punch out.

It is a statistic that does indeed indicate more than any other who wins a game. What is not commented on is why is one team usually losing the turnover battles and the games. Most of the times it is because the other team is outplaying them and they are throwing risky passes, and struggling to get more yards than they should. We've all seen better teams overcome turnover battles against lesser opponents.

So while it is a factor it is also a factor that has to be taken into context of the game. Of course you don't throw risky passes, and run with you elbows out.

[VObserver]

You can indeed coach turnovers. One, Charles Peanut Tilman has a punch out he is credited with popularizing. We, Saint Fans, saw and heard the Peanut punch turnover as #22 of the Saints had it punched out inside the ten of KC. The announcer referred to it as the Tilman punch out.

It is a statistic that does indeed indicate more than any other who wins a game. What is not commented on is why is one team usually losing the turnover battles and the games. Most of the times it is because the other team is outplaying them and they are throwing risky passes, and struggling to get more yards than they should. We've all seen better teams overcome turnover battles against lesser opponents.

So while it is a factor it is also a factor that has to be taken into context of the game. Of course you don't throw risky passes, and run with you elbows out.

You can teach the Peanut punch, but you really can't make someone good at it. What you usually get is a guy flailing at the ball and failing to finish the tackle, while the runner is gaining 4-6 extra yards.

That is like saying you are going to teach your running back to run like Barry Sanders. You can teach the technique, but your results probably won't look much like Barry.

[Boomer]

But many fans do not evaluate turnovers at all. I find it very hard to listen to a coach tell his defense to "go force turnovers". Then listen to him tell his offense "don't turn the ball over". I completely understand teaching fundamentals. But to act as if "your" defense forced the turnover... but their defense didn't... is one ignorant coach. And to act as if "your" offense coughed up the ball... but their offense didn't... is one ingorant coach.

I cannot tolerate talking about "turnover battles" any more than I can tolerate "tighter shoestring battles". You teach players a multitude of things. If you're going to give speeches to a "team" about "turnovers"... I'd like to smash your head with a iron skillet. And to have explained it 1000 times to people... and still get a jock's interpretation of it... infuriates me.

But as you stated... you don't capture all of the circumstances surrounding a turnover... but the coaches with a smidgeon of sense... certainly grade out the play and look for opportunities to teach the individuals involved.

WOW

the entire coaching experience is based upon our offense or defense doing exactly what we don't want the opponent to do

we block/we shed blocks--we break tackles/ we tackle---we catch and hold on to the ball/we strip balls---we don't turnover the ball/we cause turnovers

-whether it is the skill of the player, luck, coaching, or whatever someone on one side of the ball wins the battle and when you are winning these battles, the victory has a much better chance of happening!!! All the "what are happenings" are pretty well covered in game prep and again it goes back to the battle winner for whatever the afore mentioned reasons could have been!!!---Like our former OC would say --you turnover the ball, you don't play!!!

[moorecajun]

You can teach the Peanut punch, but you really can't make someone good at it. What you usually get is a guy flailing at the ball and failing to finish the tackle, while the runner is gaining 4-6 extra yards.

That is like saying you are going to teach your running back to run like Barry Sanders. You can teach the technique, but your results probably won't look much like Barry.

The guy for Seattle did a nice job creating the fumble by Ingram.

I am surprised that punch is not considered a personal foul.

[Just1More]

WOW

the entire coaching experience is based upon our offense or defense doing exactly what we don't want the opponent to do

we block/we shed blocks--we break tackles/ we tackle---we catch and hold on to the ball/we strip balls---we don't turnover the ball/we cause turnovers

-whether it is the skill of the player, luck, coaching, or whatever someone on one side of the ball wins the battle and when you are winning these battles, the victory has a much better chance of happening!!! All the "what are happenings" are pretty well covered in game prep and again it goes back to the battle winner for whatever the afore mentioned reasons could have been!!!---Like our former OC would say --you turnover the ball, you don't play!!!

Even though I don't like hearing the "turnover battle" coach speak... you have given an inside view of coach messaging. I don't much like the dumb down level of the messaging... and would prefer knowing technical teaching is bundled with it... but it's phraseology that all coaches use. The smart ones probably love hearing the dumb ones use it like it's an effective tool. They use it to then let on like it's what you're supposed to do to win games. Then they go teach good athletes the details of the game and kick the ____ out of the coaches that sling the hollow phrases around.

[Boomer]

Even though I don't like hearing the "turnover battle" coach speak... you have given an inside view of coach messaging. I don't much like the dumb down level of the messaging... and would prefer knowing technical teaching is bundled with it... but it's phraseology that all coaches use. The smart ones probably love hearing the dumb ones use it like it's an effective tool. They use it to then let on like it's what you're supposed to do to win games. Then they go teach good athletes the details of the game and kick the ____ out of the coaches that sling the hollow phrases around.

---I remember teaching a blocking tech on the contain man by a lead blocker----I later added film to support the tech---It dealt with initial approach angle, the body adjustment to get into a lower striking area, the location of impact, the follow through of upward movement and the scramble to keep the longevity of contact----Later I overheard one of the older kids tell a younger one---just go take the 9 tech's kneecap off ----- paralysis from analysis some would say, but yes athleticism certainly can make the patella more vulnerable from the gifted ones' attacks!!! lol

[Just1More]

---I remember teaching a blocking tech on the contain man by a lead blocker----I later added film to support the tech---It dealt with initial approach angle, the body adjustment to get into a lower striking area, the location of impact, the follow through of upward movement and the scramble to keep the longevity of contact----Later I overheard one of the older kids tell a younger one---just go take the 9 tech's kneecap off ----- paralysis from analysis some would say, but yes athleticism certainly can make the patella more vulnerable from the gifted ones' attacks!!! lol

Very good post Boomer. Coaches can mind screw athletes with over analyzing during teaching. The cheerleading rah rah coach on the team can always swing by and give some "just kick their ___" input. But in reality, when you have great athletes, and you've conditioned them to be students of the game... you can teach them enormously... individually... and as groups. The best in class coaches do it. But just like in any sport, you don't waste teaching time with rah rah dumb____ "kill em" talk. Just because the only speeches caught on video are right before big games... where the teaching is over... and now coaches need to "steady the soldiers and prepare them for war"... there is no substitute for teaching.

The fans, and even the athletes, remember the coach's speech. But it's the body of work done leading up to that speech that wins or loses. If a coach ever believes his speech was the big deal... he needs to go. I can find a 10 year old girl to give the "speech" before the team takes the field. I'll help her compose the speech. And she'll win awards for it. But she cannot teach football. The winning is in knowing the raw product and developing it through teaching.