Quarterback Club, Troy & ULM

[Boomer]

_ Thanks. One comment I made at the QBC was about how far UL has fallen behind athletically: ULM is supposed to be a rival, a school with less than half of our enrollment. I noted that last year UL had $50 million in extramural research funding.

ULM had $4 million.

In some academic areas, we are even ahead of USM & Memphis; we are certainly older than either of them, and we're larger than USM. We just haven't kept up athletically.

Now it emerges that the 'elite' of the conference, Troy, one of the smaller schools in the 'Belt, is open admissions. The Trojans (and ULM and ASU) also don't have to worry about the APR, so they can take a lot of players that no good university can.

So, are the Trojans (and ULM and ASU) good football teams because they're good universities?

Or precisely because they're not good universities?

There were a couple of reasons I used that picture of the little plane they drive around the field during Troy games for the QBC article. One is that the guy who drives it is pretty obnoxious; he doesn't just use it to motivate the Trojans (which is fine, I actually thought it was clever). It was that he deliberately parks it in front of the visiting fans whenever Troy scores, and salutes the Troy fans on either side of the visitors. He's pretty basse-classe. (However, I should also point out that I think it is equally basse-classe for the game announcer to lead cheers, which we now do at UL: "That's another UL... FIRST DOWN!")

But the other reason I used that picture was the rather strong metaphor: it's a toy. Troy University is really Toy University. It's a school built around a sports program. So is ULM, and hence Coach Charlie Wannabe.

BTW, here's a reprint of the comparisons between UL & ULM... it's a couple of years old (Carnegie has changed terminology), but it gives an idea. I wish I had time to look at all the 'Belt Schools.

University of Louisiana	UL Monroe
Founded 1898	Founded 1931
Enrollment 16,300	Enrollment 7,400
Lafayette: 114,000	Monroe: 54,000
Lafayette MSA: 512,000	Monroe MSA: 170,000
Div 1-A Charter Member (1982)	Div 1-A 1997
SREB Doctoral II	SREB Doctoral III
Carnegie Doctoral II	Carnegie Master’s I
USN&WR National U	USN&WR Master's/South
Four Active Research Parks	None
High Selective Admissions	Low Selective Admissions
Foundation $150 million	Foundation ??? $20 million 2004
Ann. Research Grants $50M	Ann. Research Grants $4M
9 Doctoral Programs	4 Doctoral Programs
PhD English/Creative Writing	PhD Pharmacy
PhD Mathematics	PhD Marriage & Family Therapy
PhD Computer Science	EdD Curriculum and Instruction
PhD Computer Engineering	EdD Educational Leadership
PhD Cognitive Sciences
PhD Environ. & Evol. Biology
PhD Francophone Studies
PhD Speech & Hearing Therapy
EdD Educational Leadership

But that's not the really embarrassing part. What's most embarrassing, to ULM, to the state of Louisiana, and to at least some people here in Lafayette, is that many people think that the 'real' University of Louisiana should be determined by a football game. For too many people, including ULM, but also Troy, and many other schools around the country, the concept of academic excellence is synonymous with a sports program. _

Wait ---Why should we have a doc in Francophone studies ------ according to Dr. Wharton---these things should be geographically assigned---We all know that there are more Cajuns in BR then UL---Let's keep fighting the fight---Like I said --if I were Steve Landry I would have been in his face!!!!

[CajunT]

_ I am not sure everyone understands Troy's Military ties, role, and mission...there's a reason for the toy plane :-)

Troy's campus is a minimal part of the University's overall operation. Troy serves as a worldwide online educational resource for military personnel and dependents, with locations in:

Germany
Guam
Japan
Korea
Malaysia
Sri Lanka
Thailand
United Arab Emirates
Vietnam

In fact, Troy maintains offices at the following military bases:

Kadena Air Base
Misawa Air Base
Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ
Malmstrom AFB, MT
Holloman AFB, NM
Eglin AFB, FL
Hurlburt Field, FL
MacDill AFB, FL
Shaw AFB, SC
Langley AFB, VA
Pensacola NAS, FL
Whiting Field, FL
Little Creek, VA
Dam Neck, VA
NAS Norfolk, VA
NAS Oceana, VA
National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, MD
Naval Medical Center, Portsmouth, VA
Fort Benning, GA
Yongsan Army Garrison
Fort Lewis
Fort Carson, CO
Fort Bragg, NC
Fort Campbell/Clarksville, TN
Fort Belvoir, VA
Fort Eustis, VA
Fort Monroe, VA
Fort Myer, VA
Fort Gordon, GA
Yongsan Education Center, Korea
HQ/A 510th PSB, Germany _

I don't think anyone has a problem with Troy's mission in working with the military or any other student that would qualify for government Pell grants or loans. The problem is with student athletes being exempt under this same program from APR. Troy can take a chance on great athletes with marginal academics, and they won't be held accountable under the NCAA's APR standards if the athlete does not graduate. In fact, ASU and ULM are the other two programs that have qualified for this exemption.

But if the rest of the SBC programs were to take a chance on those same athletes with marginal academics, we would be penalized if these same athletes did not not show sufficient progress towards their degree or graduate under the current NCAA APR standards.

So there is not major risk for them on the annual APR score. The rest of us play by a different set of rules. This is hardly fair to the other institutions that have worked hard to maintain their APR scores, not to lose scholarships.

[VObserver]

_ I really enjoy your posts... but on this one, there are so many things I want to offer counterpoints for, I don't know where to start.

So let me tell you about Neverland. Neverland has a lot of public universities, but only one of them gets any recognition.

Or any money.

That would be Neverland State. NSU has a great sports program. In any season, 1/3 of its programs will be ranked in the top 25.

But almost none of its academic programs are.

You are correct, their emphasis on athletics lets them get better state funding, and more donations.

But here's where I have a problem with your assertion that it never hurts: everyone in Neverland thinks that football defines the university.

No, they think that football defines everything.

So they approach education with a football mentality. They approach state funding with a football mentality. They approach economic development, and regional development, and every aspect of life, with a football mentality.

What is the football mentality in Neverland?

1) Win-lose. There is no win-win; I can only win if you lose.

2) Bragging rights trump all other concerns. So cheat if you can get away with it. Avoid honest competition, and any accountability at all, whenever you can.

3) Defense wins championships. If I can stop you, I don't need to move the ball. If I can stop you in any activity, I don't need to produce any progress.

4) I must always win. I have to win every contest, in every field, in every year. Anything less is a disaster.

So, Neverland State University uses its resources, not in leading Neverland, not in producing any value for anyone, but just to produce bragging rights.

There is no collaboration. To the contrary: defense wins championships, remember? So it doesn't matter how bad things are outside of the campus. It doesn't even matter how bad things are INSIDE the campus. Winning trumps all other concerns: as long as things are worse everywhere else, NSU wins.

And always, always, cheat if you can get away with it. Never accept responsibility for anything other than bragging rights, even if, say, education, and health care, and economic development are specifically part of your mandate for the state. Take the money you get for those things, use it only for yourself, and when those other things fail, claim it's not your responsibility.

I could keep going, but you get the picture.

But take it the next step: everyone in Neverland loves Neverland State, they love NSU football, so they practice the football mentality everywhere. Politics? Please, no cooperation. Right, wrong? Better, worse? Oh no, it's all about bragging rights. So everything falls apart with partisan politics.

Economic development? Oh no, you're not going to get any advantages on me. I'll do anything to keep you from advancing, including cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Cleaning up government? Who cares about that? There's no bragging rights in cleaning up government. So just ignore it. Who cares if Neverland spends more money than the other states but still gets an inferior product? Who cares if we end up losing tons of tax money-- in fact, more money than we would need to adequately fund education for everyone-- unless there are some bragging rights involved? Besides, we don't want to fund education for everyone. Remember?

Now J1M, you'll say that I took a simple statement, and ran wild with it.

I contend that across the nation, EVERYONE runs wild with the football mindset.

It's so pervasive, everyone of us have eaten so many lotus blossoms, that we can't even even see it anymore. Worse, we refuse to listen to anyone who says there's a problem. And so we all object vehemently when anyone points out-- as I have here-- just how dangerous this whole approach is.

I love sports. But it's a very, very dangerous thing. Sure it can help a school.

But I disagree with you , it can also hurt. You can spend your time, your money, and your resources going the wrong direction.

And it can hurt a lot more than just the people and the institutions selling their souls to win. _

Fungus, you can't use this obvious reference to lsu&a&mc@br as an example. As much as I dislike them, they [and Arkansas] are the exception to the rule. Certainly the Athletic excellence at Texas, Michigan and Florida has not led them to any of the attitudes or goals that you attribute to 'NSU', nor has such excellence been a hindrance to the development of other fine public universities in the States they represent.

ONLY where there is a Legislatively mandated sole 'Flagship' university has the phenomenon you describe occurred. Wonder what two states those would be? I'll give you a hint, neither one of them is Texas, Michigan or Florida.

Of course, WE are not in Texas, Michigan or Florida, either; but there is no reason for us to be poisoned by the water of bitterness flowing out of either of the major institutions in Refineryville, the legislature and lsu&a&mc@br. We must emulate the example set by Texas [UT, not the State] and follow the ancient axiom of mens sana in corpore sano. [I can't spell in Latin, sorry].

[Just1More]

You are correct, their emphasis on athletics lets them get better state funding, and more donations.

I understand your contempt for "Neverland State University". I understand your contempt for so much of America being so ignorant that they equate collegiate prominence with athletic prominence. You are not correct that all Neverland graduates view their academic credentials as synonomous with Neverland's athletic success. But, whether you like it or not, the way common Americans view public universities, is HUGELY slanted in the direction of their athletic system success. Most universities, including their own faculty and administrators, don't understand why you wouldn't achieve your maximum potential with athletics... if you choose to participate in them. They damage your institution's entire reputation when you participate... and fail.

However, one of the current missions of "Forever Neverland" is not to simply sit on their athletic prominence. There was a very intentional focus to build athletic prominence first, to the phenominal level that it is currently... in order to help slingshot the next phase... academic excellence. I would not discount the high probability of success of their mission.

UL cannot change the rules whether we despise Neverland for their constant overt and covert operations to limit our success. We have a substantial academic system to be proud of. We cannot dismiss the need to build an athletic system to compliment it. It is hurting us not to.

You believe UL going full throttle to improve athletics is a sell-out. It is not. I never implied diverting anything away from academics. That is unnecessary. I am correct that UL's increasing efforts towards athletics will not damage our academic system. Your reference to athletic concentration damaging academics is based on Neverland's servicing their own interests, all interests, at the expense of all others in the state, regardless of the actual academic contribution to the state as a whole.

We didn't and can't follow Neverland's path. We do not have their political authority. We need to shore up our own path, or risk having it all demolished. Build the athletic system up to a level of respect and use it to construct the platform to display our thriving academics. We are simply being ignorant if we do not.

Peace... see you at the Troy game!!!

[zephyr]

_ I work on campus and had Robert Walker come into the office i work in. he definitely looks like he is ready to go out and crack some skulls. told him i was looking forward to seeing him play next fall and he just kinda laughed _

What I love is that Robert Walker actually wants to be a part of this program and university. He never wavered on his commitment to us and has dedicated himself to getting stronger and better in the offseason is complimented. I especially like seeing him at other athletic events which shows his support. I can't wait to see him play as he is already one of, if not my favorite player.

[CajunFun]

_ Fungus, you can't use this obvious reference to lsu&a&mc@br as an example. As much as I dislike them, they [and Arkansas] are the exception to the rule. Certainly the Athletic excellence at Texas, Michigan and Florida has not led them to any of the attitudes or goals that you attribute to 'NSU', nor has such excellence been a hindrance to the development of other fine public universities in the States they represent.

ONLY where there is a Legislatively mandated sole 'Flagship' university has the phenomenon you describe occurred. Wonder what two states those would be? I'll give you a hint, neither one of them is Texas, Michigan or Florida.

Of course, WE are not in Texas, Michigan or Florida, either; but there is no reason for us to be poisoned by the water of bitterness flowing out of either of the major institutions in Refineryville, the legislature and lsu&a&mc@br. We must emulate the example set by Texas [UT, not the State] and follow the ancient axiom of mens sana in corpore sano. [I can't spell in Latin, sorry]. _

VO,

I just wrote a very long response.

My computer ate my homework. I went to publish, and it disappeared.

In a nutshell: what we see in Louisiana is happening everywhere. I can't prove that with data, but rather, with a lack of data.

1) PhD raw numbers. All funding & prestige is based on total PhD production: state funding, research and other grant funding, SREB/Carnegie rankings, and all other rankings are heavily derived from those. But no state looks at PhDs per program, per faculty sizes, per FTE funding.

Why not? In Louisiana, the results are shocking.

And if there's no accountability in PhD production nationwide, would you expect the results to be much different in other states?

2) Exit exams. UL used to clean everyone's clocks in exit exams, including Tulane's. Now you can't find that data anymore, it is harder and harder to find. Why? Shouldn't the "best" schools want that information published, to "prove" that they are the best?

3) Accreditation. We have seen that LSU has failed accreditation reviews, or has been put on probation. But that data is not published by the accreditation boards any more. Why not? It used to be. LSU doesn't carry that much clout to shut down accreditation boards across the country. That suggests that a lot of the most powerful schools don't want it published, either.

Everyone "knows" that the oldest, biggest schools are the "best" because, well... everyone "knows" it.

And "everyone" can't be wrong... right?

But the lack of data says that somebody's hiding something. And the only schools that have the clout to hide the data, are the "best" schools.

So the most likely explanation is that the "best" schools don't want the information out there.

[CajunFun]

You believe UL going full throttle to improve athletics is a sell-out.

No, I never said that. Unless, of course, 'full throttle' also means 'only throttle.' And your other comments make it clear you don't mean that.

And besides, if I really believed that, why would I spend my time here and at UL games with you knuckleheads?

But, whether you like it or not, the way common Americans view public universities, is HUGELY slanted in the direction of their athletic system success.

This is EXACTLY my point. We are a university, a temple of learning & education. It is our job to educate the public, to improve the status quo. If the American people (and more importantly, the Louisiana people) believe that sports is our main objective, isn't it our sacred obligation to work to change that?

Let me give a quick example. What do these three institutions have in common?

College of William & Mary
University of Delaware
Northeastern University

1) They are all public institutions
2) None of them are athletic powerhouses
3) They are all smaller than LSU (W&M 7200, UD 18,700, NU, 21,000)
4) In 2005 (the most recent data I had on my computer), they all had academic foundations larger than LSU's.

Now think about that. LSU gets a huge check from the state, contains multiple campuses and professional schools, is much larger than any of these, and is perennially one of the top sports schools in the US.

But here we see that these schools that most people have never heard of, blow LSU away in terms of alumni support... and in most academic areas, I might add.

(Actually, a lot more small public schools may also have larger foundations than LSU, it's hard to tell. LSU claims all foundations anywhere in the system, including UNO, the medical schools, dental school, law school, veterinary school, etc.)

Why am I bringing this up? Well, we all take it for granted that private schools can have excellent academics without athletics. But we automatically assume-- without ever thinking about it nor asking why-- that public universities cannot do the same.

Before I continue, I am not advocating dismantling, or even reducing, UL's athletics. I am simply saying, "Let's be smart, let's design this thing right."

Or to put it another way, "We don't have to use LSU as a role model."

Returning to my argument, we assume that public universities must have athletics to succeed. So how then do these public schools escape that?

Simple. The same way that the private schools do. It is part of their culture, it permeates everything they do.

From the moment a prospective student steps onto the campus, until he or she is buried as an alumnus, everything and everyone on campus speaks, acts, lives, with the understanding that this is a university. The message is, "We take academics very seriously, it is a privilege for us to work here and for you to study here, and we expect that you will support this institution-- and all education-- your whole life, with your money, your time, your talents."

Do we do that at UL?

Regardless of what happens with athletics, is there any reason that UL could not do this?

Is there any reason we should not do it?

I'm all for athletics. They can help... 'can' being the operative word. Because I firmly believe that at many institutions, the preoccupation with athletics diminishes the academics.

To a small extent, that is true even here. Look how much time we all spend jawing about athletics. If we all spent a small fraction of that time working to develop a culture of serious academics at UL, imagine what we could accomplish.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I want that kind of a culture at UL, where everyone takes great pride in our academics-- whether or not they have any interest in sports-- and it is simply understood that all of our students and alumni should contribute to the quality of education for all future generations of UL students, and for everyone in Louisiana and beyond.

And I doubt that anyone here would not like to see the same thing.

Peace... see you at the Troy game!!!

Peace, bro.

[CajunFun]

...the lack of data says that somebody's hiding something. And the only schools that have the clout to hide the data, are the "best" schools.

So the most likely explanation is that the "best" schools don't want the information out there. _

PS

I forgot one of my favorite ones, the one that just appeared. Tier I in USN&WR used to go from 1-50, Tier II from 51-120, and Tiers III & IV went down to about 250.

Recently LSU (and large universities all over the US) began boasting that they made Tier I. Which is unlikely considering that LSU was previously Tier III... it's a large jump. I told them they were full of faeces.

But I was wrong. They did make Tier I. How is that possible?

USN&WR dispensed with Tier II... now they have only Tier I, III, & IV.

Beg pardon?

Oh yes. LSU, at #128 out of 250, is now ranked in Tier I.

That's a joke, right?

Nope. But to give you an idea of how absurd it all is, Harvard & Princeton are ranked #1, both with a score of 100 pts. Harvard has an acceptance rate of 8%, Princeton, 10%

LSU, ranked at #128, is also Tier one, with a score of 33 points-- ranking behind Utah and Samford-- and an acceptance rate of 73%. But LSU is now in the same league with Harvard & Princeton.

Think about it. You and I take an exam. You make a 100, and get an A.

I get a 33, and I also get an A. In fact, everybody in the top half of the class gets an A. Reminds me of a couple of art classes I had at UNT.

It's ridiculous. Well, when you see something ridiculous, cherchez l'argent. The big schools have a lot of money to throw around. And they have to justify their USN&WR rankings to their supporters, in government, in the private world.

And voilà! Suddenly the big schools are ranked among the best in the USA.

The big schools are hiding stuff.

Sure, you can point to a few states which fund all of their schools well, but only two of them that I know of-- the UC system, and the SUNY system-- fund schools independent of athletics, age, or size.

And yes VO, your native state of Texas funds schools better across the board. But UT and A&M get a lot more per student than the other schools. Maybe they can produce the metrics to back up the funding, I don't know. But if so, I would guess that Texas is the exception.

Because for some reason, those metrics keep disappearing nationwide.

And the most likely reason is that they expose too many big schools.

[CajunFun]

And voilà! Suddenly the big schools are ranked among the best in the USA.

PPS

By 'conveniently' eliminating Tier II, suddenly 33 BCS schools move into Tier I.

Which is just over half of 65 schools in the BCS. Simply amazing, huh?

Like I said, cherchez l'argent.

[Turbine]

_ I really enjoy your posts... but on this one, there are so many things I want to offer counterpoints for, I don't know where to start. . . .

Epic, one of your best posts Joe.

ps Not the part I quoted the rest of it.