Rogers or Lee??

[awadelewis]

OK... glass half full time for you: Suppose that Coach Lee gets that last year of the contract. What do we have? Four out five of the starters from the end of the season are back for next season (this assumes that Gary's injuries means he isn't able to play next season). Barr started to show at the end of the season why he was recruited into the program plus we have a pretty highly respected kid coming into the program who should help in the post. We have a decent set of bench players w/ McCoy, Dison, Bloom, Wallace and Johnson plus we shouldn't have the discipline problems like we had this year. Add to this a coaching staff that knows their job's on the line and players who want to wash away the memory of the past season and you can see the potential of a very good season.

[zephyr]

_ OK... glass half full time for you: Suppose that Coach Lee gets that last year of the contract. What do we have? Four out five of the starters from the end of the season are back for next season (this assumes that Gary's injuries means he isn't able to play next season). Barr started to show at the end of the season why he was recruited into the program plus we have a pretty highly respected kid coming into the program who should help in the post. We have a decent set of bench players w/ McCoy, Dison, Bloom, Wallace and Johnson plus we shouldn't have the discipline problems like we had this year. Add to this a coaching staff that knows their job's on the line and players who want to wash away the memory of the past season and you can see the potential of a very good season. _

Agreed! However, what we still may not have is chemistry and team leadership which is really what this team lacked this year. Coach Lee tried to instill a level of discipline but many of the players reacted negatively to his style. I think you are right in most aspects of your post. Barr definitely showed flashes and I think that McCoy did as well. This offense looked its best with him running the point and driving and dishing or shooting the short range jumper. Gary will not be playing next year if at all again which is a huge loss and its a shame. We need Bureau, Gradnigo, Tyren Johnson or somebody like that to lead this team next year. I believe coach Lee should go but I also think that worse case, if he was retained, this team could possibly turn it around next year since he's done it before with what he did in 04.

[Turbine]

_ They didn't abandon the HS route. Coach Lee tried to address immediate needs in the "program" or "system" with people he thought could contribute right away.

Then don't come out and say you are going to build the program through the HS ranks if you are only going to do it for one year.

After the 06-07 season Lee knew that last years team (07-08) would be young and could have used some upper classmen, but he said he was going to build through the HS ranks.

With those players being a year older going into (08-09) the HS route would have been easier than the year before but instead he went for immediate needs. That is not a plan, that is not a program, that is a whim.

I don't have a problem with filling immediate needs if you are balanced and IF that is your program. But to vacillate back and forth is not a program it is a crapshoot.

jmo

[reddot]

_ I will not put the guilt or blame on any one thing or person for this season's failures as I think it was a mix of quite a few things. Do I think Lee is the man for us? No. But I won't throw him under the bus on some decisions because everybody was applauding them early _

If you have a mix of quite a few things going wrong there is usually a bus waiting with your name on it.

[zephyr]

_ Then don't come out and say you are going to build the program through the HS ranks if you are only going to do it for one year.

After the 06-07 season Lee knew that last years team (07-08) would be young and could have used some upper classmen, but he said he was going to build through the HS ranks.

With those players being a year older going into (08-09) the HS route would have been easier than the year before but instead he went for immediate needs. That is not a plan, that is not a program, that is a whim.

I don't have a problem with filling immediate needs if you are balanced and IF that is your program. But to vacillate back and forth is not a program it is a crapshoot.

jmo _

He's not "building" the program with these immediate fill-ins, I don't understand how you can say he is building a program with Juco guys. The nucleus of this team is formed through the players that he has recruited out of high school. I understand what you are saying but he is not building a team with these guys. He felt the pressure to win immediately and he brought in several guys who he thought could fix obvious needs right away. Adeife was only going to be with us a matter of months. Roberson was going to have one year left and he's not even on scholarship. He is not building the team with these guys but filling in weak areas.....

Coach Lee also knew that Mitchell was coming this coming year which made it easier to get help right away knowing he was going for the long haul with Mitchell on the front line. I have no problem with bringing in guys who can fill a role and replenish a depleted part of your team while using the core group of guys to build on. He is building a program while filling in some pieces. Everybody here wants wins and I think that is what he was trying to get. It backfired in a couple of the instances but he took the right approach IMO...

[zephyr]

_ If you have a mix of quite a few things going wrong there is usually a bus waiting with your name on it. _

Understood but there are things during the course of the season that I wouldn't blame on him like huge shooting slumps, poor D and lack of hustle and effort. I know it is ultimately his responsibility but I also know there is an accountability level that players should have.

[reddot]

_ . But I won't throw him under the bus on some decisions because everybody was applauding them early _

At the risk of being called a pessimist there was no applauding early on this end. There was nothing that jumped off the page about the guys he was bringing in. The whole approach to building the team seemed inconsistent.

[Turbine]

_ He's not "building" the program with these immediate fill-ins, I don't understand how you can say he is building a program with Juco guys.

I agree he isn't, and I'm not.

What he is doing is forgoing having any 4th year seniors in 4 years and at best he was creating a mismatch system that was doomed to repeat the emergency need over and over.

If he wasn't able to stick to his HS guns, a balanced system would have been the best way to build a program.

All of one or the other shows no long term foresight.

jmo

[bjc6267]

_ Under this hypothetical only one move available scenario. . .

I picked Rogers because I don't like sending the message that ultra bad programs can run and hide at UL because they don’t matter.

Get rid of the worst of the worst first and work your way up to excellence across the board. _

Turbine, I really like your logic here. Even though I do think it's time to move in a new direction with the Men's program, clearly the women's program is in much worse condition. Choosing Lee over Rogers sends the message that there is no hope for the women's team and we just don't care enough to fix a women's sport that is struggling. If you only had to choose one, I think the proper thing to do is fix the women's program. Not that I think it's the best business decision, but definitely the ethical thing to do.

Plus, there is no guarantee that merely replacing Robert Lee will be an improvement. You never quite know what you are getting bringing in a new coach into a struggling mid-major program. With Rogers, there is nowhere to go but up so you know that would be a guaranteed improvement.

[zephyr]

_ I agree he isn't, and I'm not.

What he is doing is forgoing having any 4th year seniors in 4 years and at best he was creating a mismatch system that was doomed to repeat the emergency need over and over.

If he wasn't able to stick to his HS guns, a balanced system would have been the best way to build a program.

All of one or the other shows no long term foresight.

jmo _

He is sticking to his HS guns. He's bringing in another guy next year who will be a four year guy. Like I've said repeatedly, the large nucleus of this team is youthful guys recruted out of HS. If you need immediate help and want to win now like all fans want you to do, you have to go the Juco route which is done by almost every school at some point in time.

[Turbine]

He is sticking to his HS guns. He's bringing in another guy next year who will be a four year guy. Like I've said repeatedly, the large nucleus of this team is youthful guys recruted out of HS. If you need immediate help and want to win now like all fans want you to do, you have to go the Juco route which is done by almost every school at some point in time.

Then don't declare it like you had an epiphany the way Lee did. Just do it.

I still think his arm was twisted because he had JC needs the year of the HS class.

If he was in fact nudged in that direction, it would -at least in my mind- have created results oriented wiggle room for coach Lee.
igeaux.mobi

[Just1More]

It appears a large part of the assessment of Lee focuses on his recruiting of HS players and/or not going the JUCO/transfer route. My issue wasn't the talent, potential talent or lack thereof on the floor. It was the overall ball play of the team. I've seen good coaches take average players, end up with a mediocre season, but show signs that some real coaching was going on. The UL MBB team showed little to no signs of doing anything more than pickup basketball.

I think a couple of people hit on the "Rogers or Lee" and, in my mind, wrapped up that argument. It isn't which coach did worse, it is which coaching position improvement is more important to the university. Without a doubt, the MBB has a greater impact on the school and it's fans. I hate pitting one against the other... they both need improvement. It is just a matter of which one is more critical to the university.

Tackle MBB first and then address WBB. I am much more inclined to request the AD get the entire system elevated in order to avoid the ridiculousness of this thread's title.