Honest Question about 3rd/4th and 2 or Less to Go

This question isn't to attack Dez, because Napier did the same, as it appears the vast majority of college offenses.

When it is 3rd and Goal from the 1 yard line, or 4th and Goal from the 1, why the hell does it seem we always still run a freaking shotgun formation play, run or pass?

What the hell ever happened to you need 1 yard or less to score, line up a fullback, get the QB under center, and hammer it across the goal line?

With the shotgun run play, you're automatically starting another 3 to 4 bleeping yards behind the LOS.

Am I the only one who doesn't get it?

C4L, CajunT, you guys who breathe college football and recruitment...or RickSlick who played and follows...what the heck is going on here?

Shotgun is needed so they can put a receiver in motion and run that stupid jet sweep fake that never works and adds another wrinkle to a play where timing is critical

O Linemen do almost all Zone blocking. Today's game is no where near the old school brute force power blocking done in past. Most plays are zone read option.....no OL can go more than 2 yds downfield. Skill sets needed have changed.

Minnesota ran an old school run game.....there OL used power blocking techniques without any concern about being > 2 yds downfield AND their OL knew how to do it consistently and it showed.

The biggest recent change is our talent level.....just 4 years ago there were 4 future NFL starters on our OL. Our young guys in our OL are solid......but we are not at that same level in '23

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Originally Posted by Policarp

O Linemen do almost all Zone blocking. Today's game is no where near the old school brute force power blocking done in past. Most plays are zone read option.....no OL can go more than 2 yds downfield. Skill sets needed have changed.

Minnesota ran an old school run game.....there OL used power blocking techniques without any concern about being > 2 yds downfield AND their OL knew how to do it consistently and it showed.

The biggest recent change is our talent level.....just 4 years ago there were 4 future NFL starters on our OL. Our young guys in our OL are solid......but we are not at that same level in '23

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I was wondering the same thing myself. I was thinking put the quarterback under center and push his butt across the line.

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Originally Posted by Cajunrunner

This question isn't to attack Dez, because Napier did the same, as it appears the vast majority of college offenses.

When it is 3rd and Goal from the 1 yard line, or 4th and Goal from the 1, why the hell does it seem we always still run a freaking shotgun formation play, run or pass?

What the hell ever happened to you need 1 yard or less to score, line up a fullback, get the QB under center, and hammer it across the goal line?

With the shotgun run play, you're automatically starting another 3 to 4 bleeping yards behind the LOS.

Am I the only one who doesn't get it?

C4L, CajunT, you guys who breathe college football and recruitment...or RickSlick who played and follows...what the heck is going on here?

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The chance of a mishandled snap is a bigger risk than getting stuffed on a run.

Excellent thread idea, thanks cajunrunner.

One problem might be that the QBs aren't as comfortable receiving the snap under center anymore. They need more reps at that, so a risk to just jump right into it. Look at baseball and how many pitchers don't even do a windup anymore, coach wouldn't wait until most important situation and tell them to go to the windup (granted another person isn't involved as the center is in football... so center probably needs more reps at the old fashioned close snap as well)

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Originally Posted by cajun4life

The chance of a mishandled snap is a bigger risk than getting stuffed on a run.

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Much more concise answer, thanks

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Originally Posted by cajun4life

The chance of a mishandled snap is a bigger risk than getting stuffed on a run.

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So do QBs and Centers in college not practice under center snaps anymore?

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Originally Posted by Cajunrunner

So do QBs and Centers in college not practice under center snaps anymore?

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Good question. And how many reps is enough to be comfortable at crunch time

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Originally Posted by Cajunrunner

So do QBs and Centers in college not practice under center snaps anymore?

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Not very often. Especially in a RPO offense like we run.

This is a great thread. I was wondering the same thing. From what I gather. Qbs are no longer comfortable taking under center snaps, but we were on our 3rd center so it was probably worse to line up in shot gun as the center was botching every snap.

If you gonna use the shot gun and give to Cabodie up the middle just direct snap to him and get an extra blocker. Maybe a Miguel type as a fullback that could push from behind also. Snapping to the QB there just wastes time.

outside of a qb sneak, which i would have no problem with, has anyone timed the difference between a snap under center, turning and taking two to three steps back to hand it off to the rb, vs a shotgun snap and give it to him right there? i havent taken the time to do it, wondering if anyone else has.

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Originally Posted by GeauxCajuns

outside of a qb sneak, which i would have no problem with, has anyone timed the difference between a snap under center, turning and taking two to three steps back to hand it off to the rb, vs a shotgun snap and give it to him right there? i havent taken the time to do it, wondering if anyone else has.

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Id like to see that number as well. Include QB sneek time in there.

A tenth of a second could be the diference between scoring, winning, and going home, disapointed.

ps Originally the under center question was brought up to fix all the low snaps

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Originally Posted by GeauxCajuns

outside of a qb sneak, which i would have no problem with, has anyone timed the difference between a snap under center, turning and taking two to three steps back to hand it off to the rb, vs a shotgun snap and give it to him right there? i havent taken the time to do it, wondering if anyone else has.

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Where the biggest difference is that under center the running back is firing off forward and has momentum going forward when the ball is received. If he is next to the QB in the gun he is at a dead stop when the ball is received then takes off.

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Originally Posted by Big Poppa

Where the biggest difference is that under center the running back is firing off forward and has momentum going forward when the ball is received. If he is next to the QB in the gun he is at a dead stop when the ball is received then takes off.

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. . . doesn't he take off from about the same spot and in one instance it is with the ball and the other it is without . . . help me here . . .

The snap is different as well, maybe the centers don't have enough experience either

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Originally Posted by Big Poppa

Where the biggest difference is that under center the running back is firing off forward and has momentum going forward when the ball is received. If he is next to the QB in the gun he is at a dead stop when the ball is received then takes off.

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he is still starting off from the same spot. if hes next to qb in shot gun or behind qb under center, he still starts from a still position the same distance behind the line of scrimmage.

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Originally Posted by Big Poppa

Where the biggest difference is that under center the running back is firing off forward and has momentum going forward when the ball is received. If he is next to the QB in the gun he is at a dead stop when the ball is received then takes off.

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RB can move forward at the first hike ball movement.

Shotgun delivery creates an ever so slight delay on RB moving forward as it requires ball flight delivery to QB... hand adjustment of ball... turn around... stuff the gut... RB begins momentum.

Under center hike should allow RB momentum, perfect hand placement, simultaneous step turn, and stuff into gut of the oncoming RB freight train.

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Originally Posted by RougaWhite&Blue

The snap is different as well, maybe the centers don't have enough experience either

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Valid unknown

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Originally Posted by GeauxCajuns

he is still starting off from the same spot. if hes next to qb in shot gun or behind qb under center, he still starts from a still position the same distance behind the line of scrimmage.

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Correct he does start from the same spot. But timing to hit the line of scrimmage is slowed by the shotgun snap. Under center your firing off at the snap of the ball. Shotgun your standing flat footed at the snap of the ball waiting for the snap. If shotgun was the best option in that situation the professionals would do it. They all get under center.

Could rb not stand further back than qb in pistol?

Okay...just so happened I questioned CBN about this after his second year with us. I was at the Suit-em-up get together just before the season started at the French Press. He got around to dropping by our table and I asked him why he didn't have any plays under center, especially considering we had a couple of big backs that could hit the hole much quicker on short yardage downs. He started going on and on about zone blocking and RPO plays that keep the OL from getting downfield etc. etc. when I put my hand up and stopped him. I asked him if he thought Sean Payton was a top offensive mind/play caller. He said, yes he is pretty good. I then said, well if I had to guess, Drew Brees is under center 20% of the time, so why aren't more colleges doing that. At that point in the conversation, my wife told Billy she liked his haircut, which is the same as mine, just he has a full head of hair. He pointed at my head and we had good laugh.

But, the end of the story goes like this. A couple of games into the season, Billy had LL under center on the goaline for a play or two with a score. The very next home game during the Cajun walk, I waved at Billy and he immediately got down like he was playing QB under center. It was definitely cool to see for me.

Short yardage plays are tough due to the number of players the D puts in the box. The hole may be open only a split second and handing off to the RB direct from under the center gets him to the hole quicker than from the gun. With a FB leading the way, you can apply max pressure at the point of attack quicker as well, or simply hand off the to FB...which from my playing days was quick as s h i t. You had to be really quick to get the ball out from under center to make a safe hand off because the FB was on you in split second.

Regarding getting the snap from under center safely, if they don't practice it live, you are taking a big risk that snap will be fumbled. So, I can see why so many teams don't do it if they don't use it often enough to do it safely.

We never ran the gun with Coach Zeno, in fact I'm not sure if any college teams ran the gun way back in the 70's. I often wondered what that would have been like. All of our pass plays except for a couple were timed based on a 7 step drop. We always set up between the guard and tackle, left or right side depending on which side we were throwing to. We did have a couple of 3 step drops for slants patterns, but that put you close to the LOS and easier for D lineman to swat it down. Being in the gun would benefit the QB there as he would get the ball already at his set-up depth. One thing I liked about taking the snap under center is you always had vision on the defensive backs as you dropped back. Coach Zeno's offense gave us some easy reads against zone defenses and we always audibled out when they went to man coverage. Of course, that didn't happen to often back in the stone age. LOL!

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Originally Posted by RougaWhite&Blue

Could rb not stand further back than qb in pistol?

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RB cant move forward till the hike and the qb won't or even can't hand off till he has control of the ball.

You need a secure hike for two moving players to successfully execute a hand off.

Shotgun has a stationary RB, QB gives him the ball when he is ready.

Both (either or) can and do work but a moving RB and a QB grasping for control simultaneously is, a recipe for disaster.

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Originally Posted by Turbine

RB cant move forward till the hike and since the qb won't or even can't hand off till he has control of the ball.

You need a secure hike for two moving players to successfully execute a hand off.

Shotgun has a stationary RB, QB gives him the ball when he is ready.

Both (either or) can and do work but a moving RB and a QB grasping for control simultaneously is, a recipe for disaster.

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The shotgun eliminates the option for a QB sneak, which would seem to be the best play when inside the 1 yard line. Especially since the ball carrier can be pushed from behind.