2019 Mississippi River

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

The magic number is 1.5 to 2.0 feet per second velocity of the water near the levees That velocity will start scour of the levees and "balling" of the grass and vegetation protecting the levees. No vegetation on the levees could result in levee failure.

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This erosion (ditch by my house) is from average current after rainstorms when the vegetation was removed with Roundup.

It got way worse than that because the lawn care company kept spraying the edges, and the dirt kept falling in. The State eventually applied asphalt before the road caved in.

I can only imagine the speed of dirt loss for a levee without vegetation.

It's not just the roots that protect, the blades of grass under water current act like roof shingles protecting the dirt.

I image the real damage begins when the vegetation on the banks of the river begin to die and decay from being under water for too long.

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Originally Posted by Turbine

This erosion (ditch by my house) is from average current after rainstorms when the vegetation was removed with Roundup.

It got way worse than that because the lawn care company kept spraying the edges, and the dirt kept falling in. The State eventually applied asphalt before the road caved in.

I can only imagine the speed of dirt loss for a levee without vegetation.

It's not just the roots that protect, the blades of grass under water current act like roof shingles protecting the dirt.

I image the real damage begins when the vegetation on the banks of the river begin to die and decay from being under water for too long.

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You have intuitively discovered the existence and significance of Mannings roughness coefficient (Mannings "n") without realizing it.

Grew up downstream from a sugar mill and Breaux's Baycraft on the Teche. Anyone that grew up on the Teche, Vermillion or other waterway will tell you erosion is a fact of life. It is a labor of love the work we've done to battle even simple nature. Between concrete fill to purchasing cypress seedlings from USL years back, we've maintained the yard to a degree our neighbors who are not proactive have multiple feet less of yard. We even have it slightly bowled, so much so in the 2016 flood we gained a good inch of sediment according to the property marker pin we use to measure such. That was a natural event.

Another snow/rain event over the Mississippi/ Ohio river basin this weekend will put additional water in the drainage basin that will eventually pass to the Gulf of Mexico one way or another.

Current by pass rates down stream of the ORCS are 442000 cfs and the water is rising a bout 1.0 foot per day. Request flow rate and stream level NAVD. (North American Vertical Datum) when you get to the link below.

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/la/nwis/u...20,63160,00060

Mississippi River at Knox Landing is rising about .05 foot a day. They don't publish flow rates for this station for some reason.

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/la/nwis/u...20,63160,00060


Mississippi River at Bonnet Carre is rising about a foot in four days as opposed to about a foot in two days before they opened the spill way.

It has been at or above flood stage for about a month.

Vicksburg is passing 1,830,000 cfs and water levels are rising about 1 foot in two days

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/la/nwis/u...20,63160,00060


Current prediction is for it to reach 51.0 on Wednesday and stay there for about a week and start to recede. We shall see. I still haven't seen anything regarding openining of the Morganza Spillway.


Go here for information about all the stations on the Mississippi river reporting stations. It is kind of quircky and I would not attempt to go there on a mobile devise.

https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/glan...riverid=203833


It needs to stop raining in the Mississippi and Ohio river basins long enough for the river to go down before snow melt.

Northern California has has a very wet and snowy winter. Watch the weather there and figure two to thee days later it will be over the central to eastern portion of the US driven by the jet stream. If they keep getting rain and snow then we will see the result of it after the runoff routs through the Mississippi River. I suspect we will see a series of crests and valleys on the Mississippi up until June.

If the Corps and the State will get going on adding more Mississippi River diversions flowing at will during high water south of NOLA into the marshes and let at least a small amount flow down Bayou Lafouche maybe the sediment will get put to good use. Try to mimic pre 1927 without putting human lives at risk. And if Morganza is not opening why not divert more flow into the Atchfalaya R. then kicking more into the Teche-Vermilion diversion during high waters?

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Originally Posted by Duckster

If the Corps and the State will get going on adding more Mississippi River diversions flowing at will during high water south of NOLA into the marshes and let at least a small amount flow down Bayou Lafouche maybe the sediment will get put to good use. Try to mimic pre 1927 without putting human lives at risk. And if Morganza is not opening why not divert more flow into the Atchfalaya R. then kicking more into the Teche-Vermilion diversion during high waters?

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There is the Caernarvon diversion just downstream of New Orleans

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/...95124089542100

But they pass only about 400 to 600 cfs. Not much but there has been some delta formation at the outffall. They could pass more but you would have to ask the oyster fishermen why. Just sayin.

Subsidence in that area is in the order of about 1.5 cm per year. (1 foot in twenty years) So they need to make up that amount just to stay even. Kind of hard to do that with 400 to 600 cfs. of decant water from the Mississippi.

The Wax Lake outlet and the Atachafalaya have really nice delta formations. The source is decant water from the Mississippi at Morganza. the one to the west is Wax Lake outlet and the one to the right is the Atchafalaya.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

There is the Caernarvon diversion just downstream of New Orleans

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/...95124089542100

But they pass only about 400 to 600 cfs. Not much but there has been some delta formation at the outffall. They could pass more but you would have to ask the oyster fishermen why. Just sayin.

Subsidence in that area is in the order of about 1.5 cm per year. (1 foot in twenty years) So they need to make up that amount just to stay even. Kind of hard to do that with 400 to 600 cfs. Of decant water from the Mississippi.

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One of my favorite classes a hundred years ago, taught by a guy named Reese, was Louisiana Geography. One of the many interesting subjects I enjoyed in his class was the discussion of the Army Corp of Engineers levee system and its effects, pro and con (mostly con), on S. Louisiana's coastal marshes.

The Mississippi River, before it was "tamed", swung back and forth across S. Lousiana over the eons building marshlands in its path. When the mouth of the river swung to the west, former beachheads in SW Louisiana soon became cheniers as hundreds of yards of new marsh formed in front of them from the sediment being dumped into the relatively shallow Gulf. When the river swung back to the east, a new beachhead in the form of a chenier appeared and hundreds of years later with another major flood, the river changed its course once again and the process repeated itself.

Just look at any Louisiana map and you can see the old deltas.

Today, with the river's course harnessed, most of that sediment is no longer making its way westward and is instead being dumped off the contintental shelf into deep water. I think Wax Lake Outlet is about as far west as Miss River sediment now makes it via the Morganza Spillway.

Loved that class. One of only two I didn't have to take the final. :)

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Originally Posted by Cajunfanatico

One of my favorite classes a hundred years ago, taught by a guy named Reese, was Louisiana Geography. One of the many interesting subjects I enjoyed in his class was the discussion of the Army Corp of Engineers levee system and its effects, pro and con (mostly con), on S. Louisiana's coastal marshes.

The Mississippi River, before it was "tamed", swung back and forth across S. Lousiana over the eons building marshlands in its path. When the mouth of the river swung to the west, former beachheads in SW Louisiana soon became cheniers as hundreds of yards of new marsh formed in front of them from the sediment being dumped into the relatively shallow Gulf. When the river swung back to the east, a new beachhead in the form of a chenier appeared and hundreds of years later with another major flood, the river changed its course once again and the process repeated itself.

Just look at any Louisiana map and you can see the old deltas.

Today, with the river's course harnessed, most of that sediment is no longer making its way westward and is instead being dumped off the contintental shelf into deep water. I think Wax Lake Outlet is about as far west as Miss River sediment now makes it via the Morganza Spillway.

Loved that class. One of only two I didn't have to take the final. :)

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Go to my post 35 in this thread where I try to the best of my ability to describe land formation in Lafayette parish. the link to the NRCS soil survey has tons of very interesting information. Go to post 106 where I try to describe the location of the Coteau Ridge.

The maps in the NRCS soil survey will show ancient Ox Bows and river scars if you know what to look for.

You posted while I was editing.

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Originally Posted by Duckster

If the Corps and the State will get going on adding more Mississippi River diversions flowing at will during high water south of NOLA into the marshes and let at least a small amount flow down Bayou Lafouche maybe the sediment will get put to good use. Try to mimic pre 1927 without putting human lives at risk. And if Morganza is not opening why not divert more flow into the Atchfalaya R. then kicking more into the Teche-Vermilion diversion during high waters?

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Every time the Morganza spillway is opened above current flow rates, the useful life of the Atchafalaya Basin as a flood control option for the Mississippi River is shortened. Why you might ask? It's because the Mississippi River flows at a velocity that allows it to carry sediment a rate far higher than that same water can carry as it flows through the basin. Once in the basin, the flow rate slows, and the sediment drops out, literally filling up the basin. Dredging is an option, but a pretty poor one in the long term.

One day, probably not in our lifetimes, an historic Mississippi River flood will result in the Atchafalaya capturing the flow waters of the Mississippi River. It will be a disaster of biblical proportions as the state of Louisiana will efectively be cut in half.........the Morganza Control Structure will be destroyed as will Hwy 190 and I-10 bridges over the Atchafalaya. Morgan City will be washed out into the Gulf of Mexico, and New Orleans and Baton Rouge may end up with a trickle passing by their cities.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

Go to my post 35 in this thread where I try to the best of my ability to describe land formation in Lafayette parish. the link to the NRCS soil survey has tons of very interesting information. Go to post 106 where I try to describe the location of the Coteau Ridge.

The maps in the NRCS soil survey will show ancient Ox Bows and river scars if you know what to look for.

You posted while I was editing.

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I admit that I haven't read the entire thread. The Coteau Ridge, is the ridge visible as one nears Opelousas, is that correct? If memory serves, that's the ancient western edge of the Miss River's meanderings over recent geologic time......last 10,000 years or so, again, if memory serves.

Another interesting note too about that sediment being dumped off the contintental shelf at the river's current location. It results in huge underwater mudslides from time and those oil and gas platforms in that immediate area typically "cluster" their wellheads as opposed to the more spreadout layout on other platforms. This was explained to me by a Penzoil engineer, Brian Stewart to be exact, who said it was a way of protecting the tubing from being bent or even ruptured in mudslides.

Land building in south Louisiana has gone on for eons. Regularly during the course of drilling water wells we produce wood chips from over one hundred feet deep. I recently was involved in a water well near Ville Platte. We hit wood chips from 135 ft to about 150 feet with very little if any sand. We came to the conclusion that we drilled straight down through a tree. I have the e-log and chip samples on my desk at the office to prove it. (strangest e-log you will ever see.) It must have been some significant event that caused that tree to be buried. Probably a flood of cataclysimic proportions at the end of the last Ice Age because the elevation of the bottom of that tree was at minus 100 by present day datum (give or take). It was about two miles from the crest of the Coteau Ridge so it was probably a Red River flood.

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Originally Posted by Cajunfanatico

Every time the Morganza spillway is opened above current flow rates, the useful life of the Atchafalaya Basin as a flood control option for the Mississippi River is shortened. Why you might ask? It's because the Mississippi River flows at a velocity that allows it to carry sediment a rate far higher than that same water can carry as it flows through the basin. Once in the basin, the flow rate slows, and the sediment drops out, literally filling up the basin. Dredging is an option, but a pretty poor one in the long term.

One day, probably not in our lifetimes, an historic Mississippi River flood will result in the Atchafalaya capturing the flow waters of the Mississippi River. It will be a disaster of biblical proportions as the state of Louisiana will efectively be cut in half.........the Morganza Floodway will be destroyed as will Hwy 190 and I-10 bridges over the Atchafalaya. Morgan City will be washed out into the Gulf of Mexico, and New Orleans and Baton Rouge may end up with a trickle passing by their cities.

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My post 106 of this thread discussed the Coteau ridge south of Opelousas.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

My post 106 of this thread discussed the Coteau ridge south of Opelousas.

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Okay, but amirite, does it not represent the old western edge of the Mississippi River floodplain?

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Originally Posted by Cajunfanatico

Okay, but amirite, does it not represent the old western edge of the Mississippi River floodplain?

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Yes, the coteau ridge is what is considered the edge of the Pleistocene era banks and Flood plains of the Mississippi river.

Thanks to all contributing to this thread. Makes me wish I would have paid attention in geology class in college.. Very informative thread.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

Land building in south Louisiana has gone on for eons. Regularly during the course of drilling water wells we produce wood chips from over one hundred feet deep. I recently was involved in a water well near Ville Platte. We hit wood chips from 135 ft to about 150 feet with very little if any sand. We came to the conclusion that we drilled straight down through a tree. I have the e-log and chip samples on my desk at the office to prove it. (strangest e-log you will ever see.) It must have been some significant event that caused that tree to be buried. Probably a flood of cataclysimic proportions at the end of the last Ice Age because the elevation of the bottom of that tree was at minus 100 by present day datum (give or take). It was about two miles from the crest of the Coteau Ridge so it was probably a Red River flood.

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Interesting story about the wood chips. Could another explanation be that you guys drilled through an ancient buried log pile? If you'll recall, in the early years, the Atchafalaya almost captured the Mississippi River when a huge log jam was dynamited somewhere near Three Rivers.

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Originally Posted by Cajunfanatico

Interesting story about the wood chips. Could another explanation be that you guys drilled through an ancient buried log pile? If you'll recall, in the early years, the Atchafalaya almost captured the Mississippi River when a huge log jam was dynamited somewhere near Three Rivers.

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I doubt it as these wood chips are over 10,000 years old. Kind of strange that I have some of that stuff on my desk in my office I will take a photo of it tomorrow and post.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

I doubt it as these wood chips are over 10,000 years old. Kind of strange that I have some of that stuff on my desk in my office I will take a photo of it tomorrow and post.

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No, you missed my point. Instead of drilling down the bore of a tree standing upright, could you not have drilled through an ancient log pile that was tightly stacked 15 or 20 feet high? Log jams obviously can occur naturally, especially during time of heavy flooding.

I doubt it, as there are two other wells within 100 feet of this one that did not have the same issue. There was either overburden and then sand the entire depth of the well with very few if any wood chips with the other wells.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

Land building in south Louisiana has gone on for eons. Regularly during the course of drilling water wells we produce wood chips from over one hundred feet deep. I recently was involved in a water well near Ville Platte. We hit wood chips from 135 ft to about 150 feet with very little if any sand. We came to the conclusion that we drilled straight down through a tree. I have the e-log and chip samples on my desk at the office to prove it. (strangest e-log you will ever see.) It must have been some significant event that caused that tree to be buried. Probably a flood of cataclysimic proportions at the end of the last Ice Age because the elevation of the bottom of that tree was at minus 100 by present day datum (give or take). It was about two miles from the crest of the Coteau Ridge so it was probably a Red River flood.

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The Wilcox formation near pine prairie is approximately 10,000' deep. The same Wilcox about 150 miles offshore is over 30,000' deep below water line. Water depth over 5,000' deep. Can't remember more accurate depth details, just approximations.

Thankful to be in the current, interglacial period.

This thread had me putting everyone at risk on I-49 looking for signs of the Coteau Ridge the previous weekend as I drove north.

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Originally Posted by SlickRick

The Wilcox formation near pine prairie is approximately 10,000' deep. The same Wilcox about 150 miles offshore is over 30,000' deep below water line. Water depth over 5,000' deep. Can't remember more accurate depth details, just approximations.

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The Wilcox is about 4000-5000 feet in the Natchez area, and 6000 feet or so across much of Mississippi south of Jackson and north of Hattiesburg. Also approximations from a rusty memory.

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Originally Posted by HelmutVII

Go to my post 35 in this thread where I try to the best of my ability to describe land formation in Lafayette parish. the link to the NRCS soil survey has tons of very interesting information. Go to post 106 where I try to describe the location of the Coteau Ridge.

The maps in the NRCS soil survey will show ancient Ox Bows and river scars if you know what to look for.

You posted while I was editing.

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Amazing stuff.

Sae type of thing is real evident south of Abbeville along the Vermilion.