Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
charliek
_ Yes it all matters. And they don't consider opening till the flow reaches 1.5 million cfs. The flow is what drives the rest of it. What again is your point? I never said the corps didn't watch the stages, I said they don't make decisions based upon the reasons you were stating.
Here is what you said: "As of this point, looking at the level in Baton Rouge going down now at the same rate that it is coming up in Butte Larose, I would respectfully disagree that more gates should be or need to be open. This would simply exasterbate a problem which appears totally avoidable at this time."
WRONG, this will not determine if they open or close more gates.
Wait, here I go again getting sucked in by this guy. I forgot I gave up.
You keep watching your river stage charts if it makes you happy. _
That's because they probably don't ESTIMATE the river flow to be 1.5 MMCFS until the river gets to some rediculous height like 62' at the Red River landing. Since river stage height is one of the necessary parts of the formula I have been asking for all day by my fellow geniuses. Let's just put that in there for shiggles & say I've now given you the formula & the height. Now can I get someone to give me a hard number on the flow rate & not something they are polly parroting from the TV or internet?
The very reasons I was stating are exactly why they won't open another gate. The river is in check & going down. The river stage forecast is for a steeper downward curve over the next several days. The levees are holding fine as far I've heard, & if some dummy doesn't let an unmanned barge blow into the levee somewhere we'll be ok just the way it is. And when the river goes down enough at Red River landing, the Corps will then say " The river is now flowing at a rate of -1.5 MMCFS & we can now begin closing the gates.
Can I get an AMEN?
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Wow I go to work for a day and all this happens. I have several things to say but I don't know where to start so I will make it simple.
1) During the course of this thread I was attempting to explain things in a manner that someone with a nontechnical background could understand. I hesitated to mention Hydraulic Grade line but I felt I had to in order explain some of the concepts. I really did not want to get into the details of how the computer programs work and the theory behind it as I don't think it could be understood by all. I did not want to mention variable roughness coefficients, hydraulic radius, wetted perimeter, energy grade lines etc etc. Not to mention raising a number to the 2/3 power. In addition trying to explain what a flood stage is, whether a river is in or out of it's banks or even keeping track of whether a station has a local zero or is referenced to NAVD88 and is adjusted to the latest GEOID.
2) Mr. King I wouldn't be going anywhere to apply for a job as a river hydraulicists. I suggest you do a Google search for "HEC RAS" (Hydraulic Engineering Center - River Analysis System) and download the manual. Study that manual and EDUCATE YOURSELF so you can start to get a grasp of the intricacies of what is going on here. Because, by your posts today, I can see that you really don't know ------- you really really really don't know. Don't ask me to explain it either, because the concepts that are presented in the manual are taught in the Senior year of most Civil Engineering Schools. And why is that --- because you will need every bit of mathematics, physics and concepts taught in lower level engineering courses in the three previous years to fully grasp the situation. Then you will have to work at it for several years for it to really mature in your mind and be confident enough to make sound engineering judgements. I can assure you that the Corps of Engineers DOES NOT make their decisions on river stages alone and they use many more decision making tools than could be listed here - including sound engineering judgements.
Dominique D. Naomi, P.E.
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
_ Wow I go to work for a day and all this happens. I have several things to say but I don't know where to start so I will make it simple.
1) During the course of this thread I was attempting to explain things in a manner that someone with a nontechnical background could understand. I hesitated to mention Hydraulic Grade line but I felt I had to in order explain some of the concepts. I really did not want to get into the details of how the computer programs work and the theory behind it as I don't think it could be understood by all. I did not want to mention variable roughness coefficients, hydraulic radius, wetted perimeter, energy grade lines etc etc. Not to mention raising a number to the 2/3 power. In addition trying to explain what a flood stage is, whether a river is in or out of it's banks or even keeping track of whether a station has a local zero or is referenced to NAVD88 and is adjusted to the latest GEOID.
2) Mr. King I wouldn't be going anywhere to apply for a job as a river hydraulicists. I suggest you do a Google search for "HEC RAS" (Hydraulic Engineering Center - River Analysis System) and download the manual. Study that manual and EDUCATE YOURSELF so you can start to get a grasp of the intricacies of what is going on here. Because, by your posts today, I can see that you really don't know ------- you really really really don't know. Don't ask me to explain it either, because the concepts that are presented in the manual are taught in the Senior year of most Civil Engineering Schools. And why is that --- because you will need every bit of mathematics, physics and concepts taught in lower level engineering courses in the three previous years to fully grasp the situation. Then you will have to work at it for several years for it to really mature in your mind and be confident enough to make sound engineering judgements. I can assure you that the Corps of Engineers DOES NOT make their decisions on river stages alone and they use many more decision making tools than could be listed here - including sound engineering judgements.
Dominique D. Naomi, P.E. _
That's all nice. Now can you please sir use the formula, plug in some numbers & give me some kind of "estimated flow rate". I've already been insulted by everyone else on here, but the one thing you braniacs can't do is tell me I'm wrong & prove it. I can prove I'm right. You guys can insult me 95 ways to Sunday, but as of yet they haven't had to open any more flood gates & by this weekend when they announce they're closing some if not earlier, I guess you people will find new ways to insult me & tell me how screwed up I am, but as of yet no one not anybody on this site has had the stones to use the magic formula to show me the magic flow rate.
Now until someone does I would apprecitate it if you would quit showing your mastery of insultation & stick to the point at hand, which is why is everybody in such a hurry to sink Butte Larose & drown Bambi in the process?
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bandwagon King
_ That's all nice. Now can you please sir use the formula, plug in some numbers & give me some kind of "estimated flow rate". I've already been insulted by everyone else on here, but the one thing you braniacs can't do is tell me I'm wrong & prove it. I can prove I'm right. You guys can insult me 95 ways to Sunday, but as of yet they haven't had to open any more flood gates & by this weekend when they announce they're closing some if not earlier, I guess you people will find new ways to insult me & tell me how screwed up I am, but as of yet no one not anybody on this site has had the stones to use the magic formula to show me the magic flow rate.
Now until someone does I would apprecitate it if you would quit showing your mastery of insultation & stick to the point at hand, which is why is everybody in such a hurry to sink Butte Larose & drown Bambi in the process? _
Would you walk up to a lawyer at a hearing and tell him he is wrong on Brown vs. The Board of Education? Would you interrupt a surgeon in the middle of an operation to let him now his surgery methods are wrong? Would you stop a scientist in the middle of an experiment to let him know his scientific method is stupid and boring? A normal person would not. Yet you stand up and brazenly tell these professional men that they are not only wrong, but too stupid to prove you wrong. Have you ever thought that the reason they could not prove you wrong...is because you were never right to begin with? Just wondering.....
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bandwagon King
_ That's all nice. Now can you please sir use the formula, plug in some numbers & give me some kind of "estimated flow rate". I've already been insulted by everyone else on here, but the one thing you braniacs can't do is tell me I'm wrong & prove it. I can prove I'm right. You guys can insult me 95 ways to Sunday, but as of yet they haven't had to open any more flood gates & by this weekend when they announce they're closing some if not earlier, I guess you people will find new ways to insult me & tell me how screwed up I am, but as of yet no one not anybody on this site has had the stones to use the magic formula to show me the magic flow rate.
Now until someone does I would apprecitate it if you would quit showing your mastery of insultation & stick to the point at hand, which is why is everybody in such a hurry to sink Butte Larose & drown Bambi in the process? _
As stated previously. Not one person on here is stating they will open more gates. We are just saying that a statement/decision/prediction cannot be made on river levels alone.
About your formula: As I stated earlier, educate yourself on the basics of manning's formula. That is precisely what Helmut is referring to as well. That is the starting point. STARTING POINT!! If you are still interested after that, I would suggest you audit CIVE 434, which spends an entire semester on what to do after that.
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jumboragncajun
_ As stated previously. Not one person on here is stating they will open more gates. We are just saying that a statement/decision/prediction cannot be made on river levels alone.
About your formula: As I stated earlier, educate yourself on the basics of manning's formula. That is precisely what Helmut is referring to as well. That is the starting point. STARTING POINT!! If you are still interested after that, I would suggest you audit CIVE 434, which spends an entire semester on what to do after that. _
I think what you guys don't get is I would like to hear more on Helmut's theory of hydraulic slide effect, because this may not happen again the way it is happening now. Hopefully it will never happen again period. But when these things do happen they are useful in sharing information. I don't have the time nor the inclination to take an engineering course, but I can look at the formula & see its possibilities & appreciate them.
You are taking my desire to know more & share what I've been able to gleen & automatically judging me to be a self pernicious jerk, when my motives are right. I will defend my stand based on the evidence I have until someone proves differently. Telling me you were a NASCAR driver & crew chief & now you own a racing team doesn't do anyone any good when I've got a stop watch & radar gun & you are arguing that you were going 10 MPH faster than the gun & clock say.
I can tell you this. Every time they opened a gate in Morganza I could see it on the charts in Morgan City nine hours later like clock work. Now if those things aren't useful for gleening information I don't know what is.
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
9 hrs later? Sorry but you did not see the results on a chart from morganza in Morgan city nine hrs later. You are not seeing the results of morganza in Morgan city now. Or at most you started seeing that sometime today. Is that why you made the assumption that the atch. River and calumet were handling everything? Sorry but you're way off if that's the case.
That's not from any formulas or any education I have received, or any charts. that is pure fact.
igeaux.mobi
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Again I thank all for their participation in this thread---Great discussion and just reading this stuff was really cool!!!!
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
If you go here
http://www.stream.fs.fed.us/fishxing...s_Equation.htm
It will give you a brief description of Mannings Equation.
However, the fine print at the bottom says
"Under the assumption of uniform flow conditions the bottom slope is the same as the slope of the energy grade line and the water surface slope."
This is a BIG assumption and is not the flow conditions in the Mississippi at this time (nor at any time for that matter)
Also if you are familiar with applying the equation --"A", "R", and "n" are VARIABLE for any given cross section and engineering judgement must be used in applying the equation to a given station in a river. That's right "A" (area) is a variable because of scour.
If you go here
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Nat...w.php?id=50690
you will see in the top image lots of deep blue along the Mississippi river basin. That deep blue is water. Compare that to the bottom image you can see that there is a ______ load of water STILL between Cairo Illinois and Memphis Tenn. Anybody want to guess where that water is going? The caption for those images is "lingering floods along the Mississippi". I would suspect that once that water decides to move there won't be much to stop it.
Anybody want to guess what kept that water up there? How about high water down stream (the crest). High water that is getting lower because we have crested down here. Because we have crested and the water is getting lower the energy grade (down here) is lower resulting in an increase in the slope of the energy grade line (The "S" in the Mannings equation). from here to up there. When "S" gets bigger so does "Q". "Q" can get higher without an corresponding increase in "A" (stage) if "S" gets high enough. Guess what ---"Q" is the determining factor in the operation of the Morganza spillway.
Because this is a hydrodynamic event we could be looking at fluctuating between an upstream control event to a downstream control event depending upon where you are along the river.
Re: Mississippi River Spring Floods of 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by
biged05
_ 9 hrs later? Sorry but you did not see the results on a chart from morganza in Morgan city nine hrs later. You are not seeing the results of morganza in Morgan city now. Or at most you started seeing that sometime today. Is that why you made the assumption that the atch. River and calumet were handling everything? Sorry but you're way off if that's the case.
That's not from any formulas or any education I have received, or any charts. that is pure fact.
igeaux.mobi _
That's not what I'm saying Big Ed. What I am saying is you can look at those charts & see distinct rises in the levels just like opening a choke on well on one platform & watching the rate go up on another platform 10 miles away 10 minutes later. I guarantee you I could show it to you & your mind would be blown. I can show you how an inch of rain that would fall in Missouri would make its way felt in Mississippi in less than 24 hours. The thing people need to realise is water is noncompressible & can send messages for miles down stream. These charts are unbelievable in what they can tell you. This is a fact.
I respect your work, but please don't tell me it's not so until you have taken the time to review them with someone who can read them.
