Basketball & Football Probation

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Originally Posted by BirdofParadise

_ Your memory is pretty good.
The sanctions we've been hit with is normal for the use of an ineligible player. Some are saying we hit ourselves too hard. Wrong. We were going to get all that anyway, and we knew it. We were really hoping to get away with not losing a scholarship, but weren't surprised that they included it. _

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Basketball scholarship timing issue point- I don't believe it has to be 08 and 09. That is what all the conventional media has said. However, I think we can do it in 2009 and 2010. Maybe I am confused on that. Perhaps no impact in 2008 means we will take the loss of two in 2009.

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Originally Posted by miamicajun32

It is hard to forget about when the next time the Cajuns are in the NCAAs they media will not include those two appearances in talking about Cajuns' basketball. It is also difficult to think that the banners will be coming down.

Clearly, the NCAA wanted to set an example re this minor inadvertant infraction, as long as it was not a major BCS program.

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Stop there. Using an ineligible player is hardly a minor infraction.

T-shirts minor, you bet.

Ineligible player - nope.

What gets me was how was OG cleared to play in the first place? IF the course was not valid, how did the NCAA give us its imprimatur?

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Originally Posted by BirdofParadise

_ The committee was formed to discern the difference between a distance learning course and a correspondence course.

Although the difference is ambiguous, the bottom line is our former compliance director should have made a phone call. She didn't.

Had she made the phone call and not gotten a definitive answer, then the ambiguity of the rule(s) really comes into play.

Bottom line is........you CAN'T win with the NCAA infractions committee. That's why it's best to play along with them. If they think you're screwing with them, they screw you worse and there's nothing you can do about it. _

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There is no due process with the NCAA. Jerry Tarkanian learned that years ago (though I think he may have eventually won a lawsuit against them after years of court battles). If you want to play college basketball, it's through the NCAA or really no way else. Having said that, I have to say, if true, that the penalty doesn't seem too excessive to me. As you said, you can't assume you're complying with a rule. Ignorance of the rule is no excuse. Having said this, of course it's true you'll never see this happening to a major school. This is analagous to a minor league baseball player being hit with a 50 day steroid usage ban. It won't happen to Barry Bonds. Top flight schools are major revenue sources who will always be protected. Big time sports, as life, isn't fair.

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Originally Posted by OLF82

_ There is no due process with the NCAA. Jerry Tarkanian learned that years ago (though I think he may have eventually won a lawsuit against them after years of court battles). If you want to play college basketball, it's through the NCAA or really no way else. Having said that, I have to say, if true, that the penalty doesn't seem too excessive to me. As you said, you can't assume you're complying with a rule. Ignorance of the rule is no excuse. Having said this, of course it's true you'll never see this happening to a major school. This is analagous to a minor league baseball player being hit with a 50 day steroid usage ban. It won't happen to Barry Bonds. Top flight schools are major revenue sources who will always be protected. Big time sports, as life, isn't fair. _

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If the NCAA cannot give a correct interpretation of it's own by-laws, then how can it hold institutions accountable? There is no question that the university compliance officer had a responsibility to learn or know the rules in regards to credit courses. But when questioned, the NCAA could not give a correct interpretation of it's own by-laws. It's not unitl an infractions committee recieves the list of official findings that a ruling is made in regards to compliance of the course credits. This is unacceptable from a group of so called educated people.

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Originally Posted by OLF82

you can't assume you're complying with a rule.

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Someone ought to make a sign and post that on Reinhardt Drive.

Regardless of whether we should have been punished severely or not..

This should NEVER happen again.

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Originally Posted by CajunGuru

If the NCAA cannot give a correct interpretation of it's own by-laws, then how can it hold institutions accountable? There is no question that the university compliance officer had a responsibility to learn or know the rules in regards to credit courses. But when questioned, the NCAA could not give a correct interpretation of it's own by-laws. It's not unitl an infractions committee recieves the list of official findings that a ruling is made in regards to compliance of the course credits. This is unacceptable from a group of so called educated people.

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If I'm reading BOP correctly, it is the phone call for clarification that was not made for clarification that makes the difference.

The NCAA won't clarify the rule if we don't ask. If we ask and get an unclear answer, then YES you have an agrumement about accountability.

CAN WE PLEASE FIND A PERMANENT AD NOW ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

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Originally Posted by miamicajun32

_ It is hard to forget about when the next time the Cajuns are in the NCAAs they media will not include those two appearances in talking about Cajuns' basketball. It is also difficult to think that the banners will be coming down.

Clearly, the NCAA wanted to set an example re this minor inadvertant infraction, as long as it was not a major BCS program. I can guarantee you that if the Gators had this same infraction last year, the NCAA would not even consider taking away the two nati championships. Same goes for LSU re their final four appearance last year. Same goes for any major program.

While the program is in such a bad state, the recent success is very important to fall back on. I would rather have post season ban for the next two years than lose the championships and NCAA appearances already earned. The likelihood of this current team going to the NCAAs or NIT is remote anyways, but even if they were the favorite in sunbelt this year, I would rather not lose the already earned championships and wins. _

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Although it is disapointing to have to erase the past success from history, being unable to have a chance at future post season play would not be fair to the kids currently on the team. They had nothing to do with this. You may not think they have a chance at the post season, I guarantee you that they think they do. What type of motivation would they have to improve if your idea were implemented.

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Originally Posted by BirdofParadise

_ The committee was formed to discern the difference between a distance learning course and a correspondence course.

Although the difference is ambiguous, the bottom line is our former compliance director should have made a phone call. She didn't.

Had she made the phone call and not gotten a definitive answer, then the ambiguity of the rule(s) really comes into play.

Bottom line is........you CAN'T win with the NCAA infractions committee. That's why it's best to play along with them. If they think you're screwing with them, they screw you worse and there's nothing you can do about it. _

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If a committee was formed to discern the difference between a distance learning course and a correspondence course there is, as you stated, ambiguity of the rule. So why does Potuto state, "The committee is dismayed that the institution failed to comply with a simple, unambigious bylaw and, as a consequence, allowed a star student-athlete to compete for a full season and half of another." Also, if the bylaw is so important why not write it so that there is no ambiguity.

Your last sentence is too true, and it is unthinkable that one cannot question the NCAA without fear of possibly receiving the "death penalty."

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Originally Posted by Cajunsmike

_ Although it is disapointing to have to erase the past success from history, being unable to have a chance at future post season play would not be fair to the kids currently on the team. They had nothing to do with this. You may not think they have a chance at the post season, I guarantee you that they think they do. What type of motivation would they have to improve if your idea were implemented. _

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I agree with you re current players. But from my selfish fan's perspective I would rather the banners stay up and the media be able to give the correct number of sunbelt titles and NCAA appearances.

I wonder how far the NCAA takes this type of punishment. For example, can coaches while recruiting remind recruits of the relatively recent success and show videos or photos of those big games when showing big time atmosphere that can exist in Cajun Dome or showing winning tradition? Can photos of those games be in the athletic center? It is hard to believe the memories of those games can just be wiped out. I was in Orlando for the first NCAA appearance wiped out and I will not forget it ;-)

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Originally Posted by AstroCajun

_ Stop there. Using an ineligible player is hardly a minor infraction.

T-shirts minor, you bet.

Ineligible player - nope.

What gets me was how was OG cleared to play in the first place? IF the course was not valid, how did the NCAA give us its imprimatur? _

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I agree that an ineligible player is a serious rule violation, but because the rule was not clear re his correspondence courses, I believe the infraction was minor and not intentional.

I don't know the details, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that if UL had known the correspondence course did not count, then Greene would have taken the courses necessary to be eligible. He may have had his struggles with his studies, but he would not have just walked away from the game if the course did not count, he would have made it up with eligible courses, right?

If the same thing happened while Greene was with Gators and they won SEC and especially if national title, no way this happens. The rules committee, or whatever it is called, would have found that the ambiguous rule was in fact unclear and given the Gators a break.

Now, the NCAA has made an example out of UL in order to let the rest of the NCAA world understand their first clear interpretation of their otherwise ambiguous rule.

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Originally Posted by BirdofParadise

_ Big mistake. Had we gone into it with "your rule sucks, we don't think we deserve these penalties," we'd have been hit harder. _

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No one suggested going in with "your rule sucks" at least I’m not.

My suggestion is we go in with a humble attitude and admit to the blatant T-Shirt violations.
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On the matter of the nebulous nature of the multiple rules that contributed to the unintentional winter intercession violations by the school on behalf of Orien Greene. We beg forgiveness and thank them for forming an NCAA committee to clear up the conflicting NCAA rules. It is comforting to know no school will have the same accidental ambiguous worries again.

The proof of ambiguity and relative innocence is when Coach Evans told the Associated Press in January of 04 that “Greene is enrolled for the spring semester, aiming to join the Cajuns, and is expected to be in class next week while he awaits word on the correspondence course.” No one in the sports world picked up on this NCAA violation?

On this matter we feel we deserve and ask for leniency from the NCAA. We throw ourselves at the mercy of the court. Please punish us as you feel justified.
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Jay with the NCAA acting on their own without our major guilty plea, there is ZERO chance we would have been hit harder than we hit ourselves. There is ZERO chance we end up with loss of 4 scholarships and ban from post season play for 2 years like we have been. ZERO chance. ;)

jmo

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Originally Posted by Flcajun

_ What did the Football team get hit with? It shouldnt be anything more than the probation because Spurrier anounced he was monitoring his athletes at practice at a press conference a while back. _

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They have to cut Spring practice from 20 to 15 hours which they did this year any ways. Big Deal. There is a 2 year probation period that only means don't do anything wrong because we'll be (NCAA) watching. It is the basketball team that was hit hard. Really folks there isn't anything anyone can do. Is it fair? No. But you just have to move on. The more fuss everyone makes of it the more people will think it is actually deserved. Excelling next year in athletics is the best revenge. I hope for a good winning year for all sports. We can do it and show them all.

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Originally Posted by Turbine

Jay with the NCAA acting on their own without our major guilty plea, there is ZERO chance we would have been hit harder than we hit ourselves. There is ZERO chance we end up with loss of 4 scholarships and ban from post season play for 2 years like we have been. ZERO chance. ;)

jmo _

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I thought that we were not suspended from post season play. Which is it? :???:

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Originally Posted by CajunCherokee

_ I thought that we were not suspended from post season play. Which is it? :???: _

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To me it's all the same.

They took away 2 post season appearances and I see that as a 2 year ban already served. (kind of like what the football team did with spring practice)

They took away 2 scholarhips along with 2 years of Orien Greene's scholarship. That is 4 scholarships, half retroactive, half to come.

Way to severe for murky rules.

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Originally Posted by Turbine

_ To me it's all the same.

They took away 2 post season appearances and I see that as a 2 year ban already served. (kind of like what the football team did with spring practice)

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I don't agree with that statement from a recruiting point of view. Michigan's recruitment power diminished significantly after they were found guilty. Probably why they are still struggling to this day. Not to say that Cajuns basketball were (or probably ever will be) on the stage of Michigan basketball, but kids want to taste posteason play. They don't want to play on a team in which the season automatically ends in February (or early March), regardless of your record. I understand your point about the past postseason apperances, but it is better IMO to take it with a grain of salt and move on. With future postseason appearances gone, our already stuggling "pull" for Cajun basketball would get siginificantly worse.

I was really proud of those two tournament teams and was there in Nashville cheering them on and its s*cks that we won't get credit for those appearances. But we didn't win either game, so it could've meant a lot more. Besides, it still counts to me because my trip to Nashville was one of my most memorable Cajun experiences.

It s*cks all the way around, but this is better than the rather. Its best to tighten the ship, learn from your mistakes and move on from here.