Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CharlieK
Oh I get that. I was being a smartass. You can't send more water down one half of a river. You CAN discharge that water (at least in the case of the Mississippi) from various man made spots on both sides of the river into other river/bodies of water/drainage basins. I imagine he wants them to discharge into the Atchafalaya basin via morganza and old river sooner and at greater amounts versus via Bonnet Carre....at least that's what I'm guessing he meant. Does protection of one particular fishery over the other enter into the equation of when/where to discharge?
The number one criteria for deciding whether or not to open up a spillway is if keeping the spillways closed will cause damage to the levees along the river. If the levees are damaged then we will have a serious problem on our hands.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
The number one criteria for deciding whether or not to open up a spillway is if keeping the spillways closed will cause damage to the levees along the river. If the levees are damaged then we will have a serious problem on our hands.
That is what I have always understood. Those decisions are made by the Corps of Engineers, not the state, and I don't think the fisheries enter much into their thinking either way.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
its all to protect the ____hole called New Orleans just like the new protection levees that dump storm surge onto Mississippi and flood out areas like Pearlington every time a storm comes north. Areas of south Mississippi that had rarely flooded over time now have water for even small storms due to the protection levees that divert water to the east to keep it out of New Orleans
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
its just not Pearlington that higher tidal surges since the new protection levees went up but all along the western Mississippi coast, its pretty simple math, if you take a volume of water and direct in into an area half of what it usually flows the levels will be higher meaning areas that had flooded once or twice in 60 yrs now flood regularly
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
I’m no expert for sure, but if/when nature takes over the Mississippi, where would the new port city end up according to the experts?
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZoomZoom
I’m no expert for sure, but if/when nature takes over the Mississippi, where would the new port city end up according to the experts?
Franklin or huoma
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Not on the current or "new" Atchafalaya but Lake Charles would be a possibility
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
As you are going down stream the western side of the Mississippi is to your right.
Yes. Terms frequently used to avoid confusion are "left descending bank" (LDB) and "right descending bank" (RDB). As you are going downstream (and you are facing downstream), the bank on your left is LDB and vice versa.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
info relative to Red River Landing (RRL) gage and Morganza Control Structure
RRL gage located at Mile 302.4 on right descending bank (RDB), approx 10-12 miles below Old River
RRL historical high reading 63.39 on 5/18/2011
RRL on 5/14/2019 was 60.8
Consideration for opening Morganza (mile 280) when flow at RRL is 1.5 million cfs and rising. Used to also require a gage reading at RRL to be 58 and rising. Not sure if that is still a parameter that is considered not that it was considered on its own since the reading this morning was 60.8.
Morganza designed to handle 600,000 cfs max.
For reference with respect to Morganza:
5/14/2011 first 2 gates opened
5/18/2011 last of gates opened. 17 total open
5/24/2011 first gate closed
6/27/2011 lost hydraulic connection between forebay and Miss R
6/29/2011 one gate left open to drain forebay
6/30/2011 3 gates reopened to facilitate draining
7/01/2011 2 gates reopened for draining (6 total remain open)
7/07/2011 last 6 gates closed
ORCS complex including Sydney Murray Hydro plant, overbank structure, low sill structure, auxilary structure, Old River Lock.....upstream to downstream approx river miles 316.6 to 303.7
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
They do have the Caernarvon and Davis Pond Diversions at about mile 84 of the Mississippi river but it flows less than 1000 cfs. A drop in the bucket. From what I understand, the oyster fishermen protested and they cut back on the flow. They could be building much more land than they are now but they have to "Study" it some more.
There is a connection to the river with an outfall just east of St. Charles that would provide plenty of fresh water and sediments to the area immediately south of New Orleans. Google Earth images show lots of sediment entering that area. I don't know what the name of that facility is. Maybe Mahtoo can shed some light.
Forgot to respond to your post
Davis Pond at Mile 118.4, approx 15 mile upstream of NO. It is east of the 310 bridge and St Charles, across the river from St Rose. Designed for 10,650 cfs max, 1,000 cfs min. On the RDB.
Caernarvon at mile 81.5, approx 15 mile downstream of NO, near the Plaquemines/St Bernard parish line. Designed for 8,000 cfs max, 500 cfs min.
Bonnet Carre Spillway designed for 250,000 cfs max, approx 25-30 miles upstream of NO on LDB between Norco and Montz
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mahtoo
info relative to Red River Landing (RRL) gage and Morganza Control Structure
RRL gage located at Mile 302.4 on right descending bank (RDB), approx 10-12 miles below Old River
RRL historical high reading 63.39 on 5/18/2011
RRL on 5/14/2019 was 60.8
Consideration for opening Morganza (mile 280) when flow at RRL is 1.5 million cfs and rising. Used to also require a gage reading at RRL to be 58 and rising. Not sure if that is still a parameter that is considered not that it was considered on its own since the reading this morning was 60.8.
Morganza designed to handle 600,000 cfs max.
For reference with respect to Morganza:
5/14/2011 first 2 gates opened
5/18/2011 last of gates opened. 17 total open
5/24/2011 first gate closed
6/27/2011 lost hydraulic connection between forebay and Miss R
6/29/2011 one gate left open to drain forebay
6/30/2011 3 gates reopened to facilitate draining
7/01/2011 2 gates reopened for draining (6 total remain open)
7/07/2011 last 6 gates closed
ORCS complex including Sydney Murray Hydro plant, overbank structure, low sill structure, auxilary structure, Old River Lock.....upstream to downstream approx river miles 316.6 to 303.7
wow about 2.5 feet from 2011 high. the link below is for Knox Landing, it's gone up about 2.0ft on 6 days.
https://waterdata.usgs.gov/la/nwis/u...20,63160,00060
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mahtoo
Forgot to respond to your post
Davis Pond at Mile 118.4, approx 15 mile upstream of NO. It is east of the 310 bridge and St Charles, across the river from St Rose. Designed for 10,650 cfs max, 1,000 cfs min. On the RDB.
Caernarvon at mile 81.5, approx 15 mile downstream of NO, near the Plaquemines/St Bernard parish line. Designed for 8,000 cfs max, 500 cfs min.
Bonnet Carre Spillway designed for 250,000 cfs max, approx 25-30 miles upstream of NO on LDB between Norco and Montz
In my opinion Davis pond should be more like Bonnet Carre with a constant higher outflow than current volumes. It would do more to build land to the south of New Orleans.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
In my opinion Davis pond should be more like Bonnet Carre with a constant higher outflow than current volumes. It would do more to build land to the south of New Orleans.
A Bonnet Carre type structure would definitely result in higher sediment load transfer but would most certainly would result in effects to salinity levels beyond what was agreed to between all agencies involved during planning. I don't remember what the controlling salinity levels are but if you look at operations reports you can see Davis Pond and Caernarvon are operated at the lower design levels a majority of the time, at least they were the last time I looked.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
https://forecast.weather.gov/product...n=1&glossary=0
Site for 30 day forecast that I visit. I page down and look at the last 8 columns.
Greensburg (I believe)
Vicksburg
Natchez
Red River Landing
Baton Rouge
Donaldsonville
Reserve
New Orleans
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mahtoo
A Bonnet Carre type structure would definitely result in higher sediment load transfer but would most certainly would result in effects to salinity levels beyond what was agreed to between all agencies involved during planning. I don't remember what the controlling salinity levels are but if you look at operations reports you can see Davis Pond and Caernarvon are operated at the lower design levels a majority of the time, at least they were the last time I looked.
They obviously like their oysters more than the land they live on because there is no way they are replacing 1.0 to 1.5 centimeters per year subsidence with those flow rates. Pretty short sighted in my opinion.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
The number one criteria for deciding whether or not to open up a spillway is if keeping the spillways closed will cause damage to the levees along the river. If the levees are damaged then we will have a serious problem on our hands.
.....I had read/heard that the water eats away the grass on the levies and this allows them to weaken....how do the levies actually get weakened for breaking? I hope this is not too boring for you, but inquisitive minds hope for the dumbest minds at times!!!
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
They obviously like their oysters more than the land they live on because there is no way they are replacing 1.0 to 1.5 centimeters per year subsidence with those flow rates. Pretty short sighted in my opinion.
Is the river destined to go through the old river structure regardless of man's effort. Naturally we’re reminded of how puny we are with things like yellow stone super volcano likely to destroy 2/3 of the lower 48 at any given moment. Already thousands of years overdue.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HelmutVII
They obviously like their oysters more than the land they live on because there is no way they are replacing 1.0 to 1.5 centimeters per year subsidence with those flow rates. Pretty short sighted in my opinion.
You're aware of some of the issues involved in projects like this. I'm curious to know whom the majority landowners are in the affected area. Wouldn't surprise me that some out of state corporations own that land. Even if not it's likely property owners are pitted against shrimpers, oyster men, etc. And then you have the agencies:
Corps
USFWS
LDWF
DOTD possibly
Railroad possibly
NMFS
Levee Board
Probably others
All with their own priorities and focus
And then the project has to be funded/cost shared
Sometimes I'm surprised anything gets done at all. I do agree more could be done with respect to sediment transfer but....but....but.....
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CajunEXPRESS
Is the river destined to go through the old river structure regardless of man's effort. Naturally we’re reminded of how puny we are with things like yellow stone super volcano likely to destroy 2/3 of the lower 48 at any given moment. Already thousands of years overdue.
Your question reminds me of the N.O. District Engineer, Colonel ? (don't remember his name) who answered a question during a public hearing where a question was asked about the amount of money being spent to protect Grand Isle. In so many words he said "Grand Isle is a barrier island. If we/you stop spending money to protect and or rebuild it that barrier island will disappear". He was right. In the last 30 years or so many millions of dollars have been spent at Grand Isle.
IMO the same can be said of our many structures and levee systems. As you say we, our structures, levees, etc are puny but I don't think we will see the Miss R going down the Atchafalaya, at least not in my lifetime. As long as we pay attention and spend the money.
Of course, if we have a failure right now like we had years ago on the LDB of the Miss in the vicinity of Montz, LA then it's Katie bar the door. That was a deep seated foundation failure that required a complete levee setback. Luckily the failure occurred at a time when river stages were low and repairs were completed before flood season. Hope I never see that.
Re: OT: Mississippi River Aquapocalypse 2019
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mahtoo
Your question reminds me of the N.O. District Engineer, Colonel ? (don't remember his name) who answered a question during a public hearing where a question was asked about the amount of money being spent to protect Grand Isle. In so many words he said "Grand Isle is a barrier island. If we/you stop spending money to protect and or rebuild it that barrier island will disappear". He was right. In the last 30 years or so many millions of dollars have been spent at Grand Isle.
IMO the same can be said of our many structures and levee systems. As you say we, our structures, levees, etc are puny but I don't think we will see the Miss R going down the Atchafalaya, at least not in my lifetime. As long as we pay attention and spend the money.
Of course, if we have a failure right now like we had years ago on the LDB of the Miss in the vicinity of Montz, LA then it's Katie bar the door. That was a deep seated foundation failure that required a complete levee setback. Luckily the failure occurred at a time when river stages were low and repairs were completed before flood season. Hope I never see that.
I think we have a better chance of an errant barge or a ship losing it's steering causing damage to a levee during high water events.